The EU Referendum.

[astral276]

To suggest that the killer was radicalised over a long period of time and not by the arguments put foreward by we Brexit Supporters is not ridiculous

Nor is it in anyway a defence of the actions of the killer

Thanks for that. I don't read her output unless it is quoted in someone's post, so i wasn't aware that she had falsely accused me of defending the killer. Typical of the stuff she puts out and why I stopped reading her posts.

[westlondoncarparts]

I would imagine that to radicalise someone in this way you might, perhaps, go about it like this:

Attachment 53226

Or maybe like this:

Attachment 53227

Our politicians and media really do have a lot to answer for.

Well said.

There is a lack of leadership from our politicians.

Elements of the mainstream media think that they can distort facts in whatever way they wish and disseminate their propaganda without any consideration that they might have some responsibilities to society to behave in an ethical way..

[westlondoncarparts]

Interesting talk from the Professor of European Law at Liverpool Uni. It seems that he's not a fan of either campaign and it makes a bit of a change from the usual political soundbites. The light shed on post Brexit trade and international relations as well as the observations on the practicalities and timescales of renegotiating trade deals are worth a watch. Much more sobering are the points about disentagling our legal system, the capacity of our civil sevice to renegotiate new deals and the relative lack of trading influence that the UK has in a post Brexit world. If you've got a spare 25 mins it's worth a watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y

I did view the video.

To my mind David Cameron should have started the Referendum debate by explaining quite comprehensively how the EU works and what we would have to do to disentangle ourselves from it and what the impact of disentanglement would be. Because he did not do that, it is almost as if everybody has been drawn into a conversation half way through without knowing what the starting point for the conversation is. Furthermore, a lot of the EU issues are not simple yes or no issues but quite complex with many shades of grey. He should have given a much longer time frame for the Referendum so that the general public could get the detailed grasp of the issues that they need. He has really fallen down on leadership here.

As for the Leave side, I would agree wholeheartedly with Professor Dougan's comments that some of their arguments represent dishonesty on an industrial scale. In some quarters on the Leave side there has been scant regard for truth.

There is a real need for the British electorate to have a good root and branch review of the EU and its workings and to understand what is right with it and what is wrong with it and to figure out the best way forward. Both the Remain and Leave sides have effectively denied the British electorate that opportunity because of the way that they have been conducting themselves. And that is the most anti-democratic thing of all.

[tony41]

I did view the video.

To my mind David Cameron should have started the Referendum debate by explaining quite comprehensively how the EU works and what we would have to do to disentangle ourselves from it and what the impact of disentanglement would be. Because he did not do that, it is almost as if everybody has been drawn into a conversation half way through without knowing what the starting point for the conversation is. Furthermore, a lot of the EU issues are not simple yes or no issues but quite complex with many shades of grey. He should have given a much longer time frame for the Referendum so that the general public could get the detailed grasp of the issues that they need. He has really fallen down on leadership here.

As for the Leave side, I would agree wholeheartedly with Professor Dougan's comments that some of their arguments represent dishonesty on an industrial scale. In some quarters on the Leave side there has been scant regard for truth.

There is a real need for the British electorate to have a good root and branch review of the EU and its workings and to understand what is right with it and what is wrong with it and to figure out the best way forward. Both the Remain and Leave sides have effectively denied the British electorate that opportunity because of the way that they have been conducting themselves. And that is the most anti-democratic thing of all.

Both sides of the debate have tried to frighten the electorate. The Out campaign accused the Remain of applying "project fear" as soon as the campaigning started then proceeded to do exactly the same themselves.
We are told by the Out campaign that we can trade with the EU with little change following the example of Norway. To do this, Norway still has to contribute to the EU budget, still has to conform to EU regulations on anything they sell to the EU and, most importantly, has to allow the free movement of EU citizens. This is a lose-lose situation if applied to the UK. Still pay, still conform to regulations and still have to allow the free movement BUT we have absolutely no influence or input into the process of EU government. This is one of the biggest lies perpetrated by the Out campaign.

[olivia8143]

To suggest that the killer was radicalised over a long period of time and not by the arguments put foreward by we Brexit Supporters is not ridiculous

Nor is it in anyway a defence of the actions of the killer

You seem to have misread my post. Astral was explaining (defending) the killer by saying that he was radicalised by being made to feel a 2nd class citizen and I responded by saying in that case virtually everyone in the country could be considered radicalised.

[MPS16]

You seem to have misread my post. Astral was explaining (defending) the killer by saying that he was radicalised by being made to feel a 2nd class citizen and I responded by saying in that case virtually everyone in the country could be considered radicalised.

I can not speak for Astral

But the following is the definition of radicalised that I assumed Astral meant.


radicalisation is a process by which an individual or group comes to adopt increasingly extreme political, social, or religious ideals and aspirations that (1) reject or undermine the status quo or (2) reject and/or undermine contemporary ideas and expressions of freedom of choice.

Secondly In no way in my opinion was Astral "explaining (defending) the killer by saying that he was radicalised"

[PATRIOT73]

i read the remain camp have rolled out another millionaire celeb
in the form of david Beckham
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...-a7092766.html
live from los angles £8m beckham towers

moments later

coindence u decide

what annoys me is that regardless of the outcome of referendum on 24th June
it will not impact their lifestyle etc

hes convinced me im changin my vote

[MPS16]

i read the remain camp have rolled out another millionaire celeb
in the form of david Beckham......hes convinced me im changin my vote

I have also changed my mind.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36587819

"In a hastily arranged ten minute statement outside Downing Street, Mr Cameron strove to emphasise the momentous nature of the decision facing the British people, warning if the UK chose to leave it would be "irreversible" and Britain would be "out of Europe for good".

Out of the European Union yes.

Out of Europe is a geographical impossibility.

Mr Cameron's former adviser Steve Hilton, who backs leaving the EU, called it a "weird statement" and a "rather amazing thing to hear"."What you just saw from the prime minister was an admission that they've lost the economic argument, they've lost the argument on immigration, so he's being wheeled out by rather panicky spin doctors to try to change the subject," Mr Hilton told the BBC.

[PATRIOT73]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36582391

unrealistic
migration target in EU and dodgy D was told in 2012



if u got 2mins watch tis video
https://www.facebook.com/leftofleft/...7329700338121/

[sogobuymugs]

i read the remain camp have rolled out another millionaire celeb
in the form of david Beckham
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...-a7092766.html
live from los angles £8m beckham towers

moments later

coindence u decide

what annoys me is that regardless of the outcome of referendum on 24th June
it will not impact their lifestyle etc

hes convinced me im changin my vote

You are voting to stay in , that's good news.