The EU Referendum.

[sidthelamp]

the TTIP is being negotiated in private by the EU the british government may well be taking part, but its the EUs baby so to speak, we cant go to our own politicians for information because very few of them know whats going on, the ones that do are not telling, this is how the EU works its undemocratic and is unaccountable to the very people its supposed to represent,

[tony41]

the TTIP is being negotiated in private by the EU the british government may well be taking part, but its the EUs baby so to speak, we cant go to our own politicians for information because very few of them know whats going on, the ones that do are not telling, this is how the EU works its undemocratic and is unaccountable to the very people its supposed to represent,

Even if we leave the EU, TTIP will still be applied to Great Britain because David Cameron has expressed his wish that GB should be included, EU or no EU. It's like the extradition treaty with USA. They can extradite anyone from GB without having to present any evidence. Can we extradite anyone from the USA? I'll leave you to guess the answer.

[sidthelamp]

Even if we leave the EU, TTIP will still be applied to Great Britain because David Cameron has expressed his wish that GB should be included, EU or no EU. It's like the extradition treaty with USA. They can extradite anyone from GB without having to present any evidence. Can we extradite anyone from the USA? I'll leave you to guess the answer.

too early to call no one knows what will will do when we leave the eu we will have a choice again with who we trade with and how we trade and what we import , ttip and the eu will not necessarily by there own rules trade in a global market nor will we be obliged to import eu/ttip goods , as i say its too early to call

[astral276]

Latest scare story on Brexit... THE RUSSIANS ARE COMING!!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35550651

The EU is already weak (and getting weaker). Too slow witted and slow moving to respond effectively to any crisis. I can't think of a single crisis it has been effective in addressing; it usually makes things worse.

[MPS16]

.....I can't think of a single crisis it has been effective in addressing; it usually makes things worse.

Is thats why its called a Post Code Lottery.

[westlondoncarparts]

If it is true that TTIP will still be applied to the UK even if we leave EU, what does that say about David Cameron’s democratic credentials?

Blames the EU on the one hand for lack of accountability, and then signs us up to TTIP without the British electorate knowing what is going on?

Unforgiveable if it is true.

Going off in a different direction, I suppose it had to happen. Straight out of the ‘Create a Bogeyman’ chapter in ‘The Art of Propaganda’ Operations Manual we get President Putin introduced to the EU Referendum debate as a reason for staying within the EU.

Forget the fact that the Russian Federation is far more democratic than both the EU and the UK, forget the fact that the Republic of Crimea voted democratically to join the Russian Federation and was not invaded, forget the fact that it has been some of the EU member nations that have successively destablised countries in the Middle East and helped to destroy them, forget the fact that a key NATO member has at best been turning a blind eye to oil trading with IS and at worst has been actively colluding with them, Putin gets blamed for everything so let’s bring him into Project Fear as the Wicked Witch from the East.

Must be Jeremy Corbyn’s turn for Bogeyman of the Day anytime now. Nobody has had a serious go at him since Wednesday afternoon so his turn must be coming up.

The decision about whether to stay in or to leave the EU has such serious consequences that the nonsense we are getting from some of the high profile people is beyond belief.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35550651

[astral276]

EU Negotiation Process:

1. Offer them nothing dressed up as something.
2. Are they as stupid as we think and accept it? If Yes, go to 4.
3. Offer a little bit more. Go back to 2.
4. Hold referendum and ensure a 'Remain' result.
5. Member nations take cases to the European Court of Injustice and get all possible deal terms declared illegal (being illegal they are not 'legally binding').
6. Existing promise to hold a referendum before any more transfers of UK sovereignty to the EU dropped ('cos you already had yer chance).
7. Any remaining deal items rendered impotent by changes to current treaties and introduction of new treaties.
8. Put mechanisms in place to prevent any possibility of any future referendum being held.

[billsstamps]

[QUOTE=astral276;1666290]EU Negotiation Process:

It would all be so much easier if we didn't need the EU for a good economy

The EU is in a bad state, but that doesn't mean it is a worse option than GB going broke.

[westlondoncarparts]

With regard to post #77, there is already track record on ignoring a key referendum elsewhere.

In March 1991 a referendum was held across most of the various republics of the Soviet Union regarding reforms of the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union was an advanced form of the EU with much greater levels of political, economic and social integration but with the difference that the economy was based upon community ownership of production resources and upon centralised planning and co-ordination of investment and production. The overwhelming majority of those who voted wished to retain the Soviet Union in a reformed version. The electorate were ignored by the likes of Gorbachev and Yeltsin who dissolved the Soviet Union against their wishes in what can only be described as the greatest crime of the 20th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet...ferendum,_1991

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...comment.russia

Going off subject but a useful piece of information, President Yeltsin of what is now the Russian Federation was one of the USA’s men in Russia who was behind the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Yeltsin banned the communist party and implemented economic reforms as advised by the Americans. The Americans thought they had achieved regime change in Moscow after the dissolution of the Soviet Union. The shock of moving so fast from a centralised economy under state control to a market economy with minimal state control collapsed the Russian economy causing many to lose what financial resources they had and plunged millions of Russian citizens into absolute poverty. When Yeltsin gave up the Russian presidency, he handed over the levers of power to a then relatively unknown technocrat called Vladimir Putin. Putin proved to be highly competent saving Russia from economic and social and political chaos and is widely highly regarded in Russia as the saviour of the Russian Federation. However, he was not a USA man and he steered Russia away from American regime change to a politically independent Russia. He snatched Russian independence from the jaws of American control which is why he is so reviled by the USA and why the propaganda of demonisation and of character assassination against him is always in overdrive from the West.

[westlondoncarparts]

Here is a challenge to those people who would like to leave the EU.

When politicians make grand pronouncements, like Hilary Benn about the Russians, I always go back to source facts if available. This led me to the following page on the EU Parliament website about working towards a European Energy Union.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/...DOC+XML+V0//EN

I am a person who is different to many in that in working life I can usually work with the big picture as well as drill down to get the lowest level of detail right. I am used to working with levels of multi-dimensional complexity that many people are not able to get their minds around.

However, this particular resolution is beyond me as it is so complicated.

Is there anybody who could succinctly summarise everything that this is about in say around 250 words?

If any of the people who want to leave the EU people could do that, then it would help you to win the argument about bureaucratic complexity in Brussels and Strasbourg and about how things could be done more simply.

For the record, in the absence of sufficient factual information on which to come to a sensible conclusion, I am of the opinion currently that there are major pros and cons on the UK membership of the EU so am overall somewhat neutral on the EU. I am not, therefore, an EU basher seeking to have a go at the EU at every opportunity when I post this item but am quite genuinely taken aback by the complexity of this resolution. What worries me is that there are likely to be others that are equally as complex. And all this complexity must require a small army of people to develop and to implement and must be costing a lot of money.