Scottish Independence... What are your thoughts?

[PetBazaar]

So, if the Scots vote "No" in September, is that it?

Can they have another go a bit later, or some time in the future?

What will Mr S do with himself if the "No" vote is carried - blame the English, obviously, but doesn't that rather take the wind out of his sails? He surely can't reign as the Scottish Independence voice when most have said they don't want it?

There are four trains of thought doing the rounds at the moment...

1) There will not be another referendum for a generation. That's the official SNP position.

2). If a referendum votes to remove the UK from the EU then another IndyRef should be called.

3) This one is an oddity... The SNP should become a single issue party and if they're ever returned to power then it should be regarded as a mandate for another IndyRef.

4) Westminster will amend the Scotland Act to remove the power of Holyrood to call another referendum.

At the moment, I can't help but think that #2 may come into play. Although #1 is more likely if the EU In/Out vote is a damp squib.

The one thing that you can be certain that Salmond won't do is blame the English. This is mainly a media thing where they completely fail to see the difference between anti-Westminster and anti-English. I can see the mainstream media taking a pasting as well as the Scottish Labour Party.

As far as I know Alex Salmond intends to remain as leader of the SNP, at least until the next Scottish Elections. If they lose that, which at the moment seems unlikely, then anything is possible. I still think that no matter who wins it's going to be something like 55-45 which really isn't a convincing victory for either side.

Another thought that's gathering a little strength is that in the event of a "No", by 2016 you'll struggle to find someone who will admit to voting no.

[westlondoncarparts]

I would hope that maybe there could be an additional fifth option for the UK as a whole and not for Scotland only.

We have something seriously wrong with the integrity of the politics at Westminster when the Western powers including David Cameron show such immense disrespect to the passengers who lost their lives in the airplane that exploded the other week by turning the tragedy into an opportunistic political event to have a go at Russia. Even though David Cameron says that he does not know how the disaster happened, he says it is President Putin’s fault.

If there is no clear winner in next year’s UK General Election, as an English person I would be delighted to have the SNP as one of the partners in a Coalition Government so that some Scottish decency and sense of community can be brought into mainstream politics across the UK. It would be great to have Alex Salmond as Deputy Prime Minister and for him to be part of a clean up of the integrity of politics at Westminster. Unfortunately that will not be possible as he will not want to stand for election to the Westminster Parliament but it would be good if somebody from the SNP could be Deputy Prime Minister and help to create a truly united United Kingdom based on inclusion and respect and integrity rather than the divided one that we have at present that is based on exclusion and disrespect and a complete absence of understanding of what integrity is.

Whatever the outcome of the Scottish Referendum, and whether you like Alex Salmond or not, he should be recognised as having done a lot for Scotland. If the vote is No, the consolation prize will be more devolved powers to Edinburgh and more control over Scottish affairs which will be his achievement for Scotland. And if the vote is no, that does not mean that he cannot make a meaningful ongoing contribution to politics not just in Scotland but across the UK.

[suesjools]

I would hope that maybe there could be an additional fifth option for the UK as a whole and not for Scotland only.

We have something seriously wrong with the integrity of the politics at Westminster when the Western powers including David Cameron show such immense disrespect to the passengers who lost their lives in the airplane that exploded the other week by turning the tragedy into an opportunistic political event to have a go at Russia. Even though David Cameron says that he does not know how the disaster happened, he says it is President Putin’s fault.

If there is no clear winner in next year’s UK General Election, as an English person I would be delighted to have the SNP as one of the partners in a Coalition Government so that some Scottish decency and sense of community can be brought into mainstream politics across the UK. It would be great to have Alex Salmond as Deputy Prime Minister and for him to be part of a clean up of the integrity of politics at Westminster. Unfortunately that will not be possible as he will not want to stand for election to the Westminster Parliament but it would be good if somebody from the SNP could be Deputy Prime Minister and help to create a truly united United Kingdom based on inclusion and respect and integrity rather than the divided one that we have at present that is based on exclusion and disrespect and a complete absence of understanding of what integrity is.

Whatever the outcome of the Scottish Referendum, and whether you like Alex Salmond or not, he should be recognised as having done a lot for Scotland. If the vote is No, the consolation prize will be more devolved powers to Edinburgh and more control over Scottish affairs which will be his achievement for Scotland. And if the vote is no, that does not mean that he cannot make a meaningful ongoing contribution to politics not just in Scotland but across the UK.

It's nice to know there are others in this world who recognize the importance of broadening horizons and including everyone in a representative democracy, (we have quite a few over here who feel just the opposite, unfortunately; IMHO it's too bad the Mayflower didn't capsize en route)...

Thanks to everyone for posting and sharing your thoughts, I find this subject extremely interesting from a historic perspective, (OK, I'm a nerdy history buff, so shoot me, LOL).

Best wishes for many sales to all,

[MPS16]

,,,,Whatever the outcome of the Scottish Referendum, and whether you like Alex Salmond or not, he should be recognised as having done a lot for Scotland.....

And for England and the English.

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

An English parliament with devolved powers is the logical conclusion.

More power to UKIP

[squern]

"It would be great to have Alex Salmond as Deputy Prime Minister and for him to be part of a clean up of the integrity of politics at Westminster."

That sounds like a great idea. Although you note that it would not be possible at the moment, it must be possible to construct some framework that includes Mr S and the leaders of the Welsh and N.I. parliaments in the Westminster decision-making bubble.

In the past, when favourite MPs have lost their seats at an election, ways have been found to include them in government.
The Government has a Minister for Scotland, and others for Wales and N.I., appointed from within the English elected parliament.

What could be better than a Minister for Scotland, not appointed but elected by the Scots? Same for the Welsh & Irish.
That would be more representative of the voters' wishes, and address the democratic deficit.

All Governments appoint "Special Advisers" (by the hundred), who influence the Government without having been elected by anybody, and often without any particular qualification for the job other than being a chum of somebody. A recent admission to Her Majesty's Prisons comes to mind.

How much more does an elected leader from one of the other countries in the UK have the right to influence the Westminster government?

It is usually assumed that the Westminster government rules for the whole of England, but it does not. It rules for a small coterie located in and around London, and places that have been colonised by that wealthy, well-connected set.

Ask anyone from Newcastle, or Nottingham, or Carlisle if they feel their interests are very well represented at Westminster. They have local MPs, but they are vastly outnumbered by an interested clique who constantly draw money, talent, and resources to a very very small area of this great country.

If Mr S could help to wrest some of the money and influence out of London and into the majority of the country, I would be all for it.

[PetBazaar]

"It would be great to have Alex Salmond as Deputy Prime Minister and for him to be part of a clean up of the integrity of politics at Westminster."

That sounds like a great idea. Although you note that it would not be possible at the moment, it must be possible to construct some framework that includes Mr S and the leaders of the Welsh and N.I. parliaments in the Westminster decision-making bubble.

In the past, when favourite MPs have lost their seats at an election, ways have been found to include them in government.
The Government has a Minister for Scotland, and others for Wales and N.I., appointed from within the English elected parliament.

What could be better than a Minister for Scotland, not appointed but elected by the Scots? Same for the Welsh & Irish.
That would be more representative of the voters' wishes, and address the democratic deficit.

All Governments appoint "Special Advisers" (by the hundred), who influence the Government without having been elected by anybody, and often without any particular qualification for the job other than being a chum of somebody. A recent admission to Her Majesty's Prisons comes to mind.

How much more does an elected leader from one of the other countries in the UK have the right to influence the Westminster government?

It is usually assumed that the Westminster government rules for the whole of England, but it does not. It rules for a small coterie located in and around London, and places that have been colonised by that wealthy, well-connected set.

Ask anyone from Newcastle, or Nottingham, or Carlisle if they feel their interests are very well represented at Westminster. They have local MPs, but they are vastly outnumbered by an interested clique who constantly draw money, talent, and resources to a very very small area of this great country.

If Mr S could help to wrest some of the money and influence out of London and into the majority of the country, I would be all for it.

The main spanner in the works that I can see against that one working is the Labour Party. For 50 years Labour have regarded as Scotland as their territory, at local level it's was a real labour fiefdom. Unfortunately they really haven't come to terms with the SNP slowly but surely pushing them out. And their virtual collapse (relative to their previous support) at the last Scottish Election caught many by surprise. Not least Alex Salmond, who I suspect would probably have preferred to avoid this referendum for another few years.

It would be fair to say that Labour can't stand the SNP and it's a real visceral hatred. Until recently (it may still be the case) that Labour even had an unofficial policy of objecting to all SNP motions in Westminster, even if they were to the benefit of Scotland.

The SNP would also have to change their policy as they have an agreement to abstain on votes that don't affect Scotland, but I guess that depending on the nature of the agreement, that that may not be an issue.


One thing that interests me though, I've read a few comments in various places from English folk complaining about the lack of representation for areas outwith London and it seems to be quite a common feeling. But I also recall that the English well and trully rejected the devolution of regional assemblies and the UK as a whole voted to keep the "First Past The Post" voting system. How do folk think that these two apparently contradictory things tie together?

[suesjools]

OK, I'll admit my ignorance and ask: what does 'first past the post' mean?

Best wishes for many sales to all,

[PetBazaar]

OK, I'll admit my ignorance and ask: what does 'first past the post' mean?

Best wishes for many sales to all,

Each party puts up a candidate in each constituency that they wish to contest. Voters get a single vote and vote for their preferred candidate in their constituency. The candidate with the most votes wins the "seat". In simplistic terms, the party that wins the most seats wins power. Each party aims to be first past the post (that is, reaching the point where they have more seats than the others).

In Scotland (for the Scottish Parliament Elections) we have a form of proportional representation. Everyone has two votes. The first is identical to the 1st system and this elects 70 or so MSPs. In the second vote Scotland is split into regions with a number of MSPs and you vote for your preferred party instead. Each party can nominate a number of candidates for each region. If I recall correctly it's 8 regions with 7 seats each. Votes are counted up and allocated to the parties and their chosen MSPs elected proportionally. So the winner may get 3 MSPs, the runner up 2 and if they get sufficient votes 3 other parties will have 1 each (or something similar).

Clear as mud.

[tony41]

OK, I'll admit my ignorance and ask: what does 'first past the post' mean?

Best wishes for many sales to all,

In an election the candidate with the largest vote wins.
In an extreme example, with five candidates a candidate could win and only get 21% of the vote if three of the other four get 20% and the last gets 19%. Many countries have one of a large number of proportional representation systems.

[suesjools]

Thanks Pets and Tony for the explanations. Here we vote directly for our members of Congress (Senate and House) and also for President and VP. Oddly enough, though, they use the citizen votes to calculate Senate seat wins, but for President and VP they use the outdated (IMHO archaic) electoral college system. I had hoped at one point this might be changed (there was talk about abolishing the electoral college system some time ago) but unfortunately talk is all it's been.

Thanks again for keeping this Yank in the loop. It would be nice to hear something about Scotland on our news channels or on BBC News here, but unfortunately little to nothing is the standard fare, at least to my knowledge that is - if anyone in the U.S. knows of a channel that broadcasts anything about this, please let me know.

Best wishes for many sales to all,