Please consider signing my petition to the PM

[cmjewels925]

Hi sdk,

I've signed. Sorry, I didn't see this thread until today. You may get a better response if you move it to the kt as I'm probably not alone in not looking this far down the forums.

As you know, I won one of your keyboards and I'm typing this using Dvorak. Okay, to be totally honest, I'm using a qwerty keyboard (haven't got round to getting an adaptor for your keyboard yet) but I've told my computer it's a Dvorak and it hasn't realised I'm lying to it - yet.

I'd been a qwerty touch-typist averaging around 50wpm and I'm now doing around 60wpm on Dvorak - I averaged 67wpm last time I did a test.
Okay, 67 is still fairly pathetic but I was quite happy with 50.

Good luck with the petition,

Claire

[cmjewels925]

Hey, I've just thought, do I now have bi-lingual fingers?

[sdk]

Heh... you should have 'bi-lingual fingers,' yes: it's just like if you know English and learn Spanish or French, you don't suddenly forget how to speak the other language. But as with anything, if you want to retain your skill with QWERTY (although... why would you?) you'll have to practice with it.

67 wpm isn't pathetic in my book... I can only manage a high speed of 52 at the moment - although that's faster than I could type on QWERTY. I make fewer mistakes too, so less hitting the backspace, speeds things up a little. Most of all, it feels much more comfortable. Which is, IMO, the main advantage.

Thanks for signing. You might be right about this thread having a higher visibility on KT... but then I tend to browse threads by clicking on 'new posts'... so maybe not? Depends how people use the forums.

[mumblin]

I must say this thread has piqued my interest, partly because I'm just teaching the kids to touch type.
I'm wary though for myself, having been a touch typist for 25 years I might not be able to retrain at 100wpm +...
I'll give it a go and see what the kids say too.

[DaisyChain]

Ive read a bit about dvorak, but never really thought about it until i saw this topic. i think its a nice idea but in practically, it just for me is not worth the time and effort of the governemnt, when i feel there are far more important issues.

The health aspects of it sound great, but

In regards to praticallity, what advantage is a child going to have by learning to use dvorak? Most business dont and wont use them, as standard practice is and will be for a while to come, qwerty keyboards, and there may be places where it may hinder people more than help.

As example, i work in IT support and we often get users who know very little about computers, if im someone who is working with dvorak keybaord, and the end user (over the phone) is using qwerty and is struglgling to find a certain key to do something....how can i advise that user where to find that key? if im not 100% sure and have a different keyboard. It may seem a bit far fetched, but its common for people to ask where paticular keys are on the keybaord, including the infamous "any" key.

Also going back to the workplace issue, again if i used a dvorak keybaord and have to move machines (which happens a lot with pc terminals), does that mean i have change my settings, unlplug and replug my keybaord every time because other pc's dont have dvorak?

As for the bi-lingual aspect, from what ive read, you cant just chop and change back and forth from qwerty to dvorak, and its recomended that if your wishing to practice dvorak, not to do it if you have quite a bit of work to do..........

I think its a nice noble cause, but as said elsewhere, there are far better things to waste the taxpayers money on

[sdk]

I must say this thread has piqued my interest, partly because I'm just teaching the kids to touch type.
I'm wary though for myself, having been a touch typist for 25 years I might not be able to retrain at 100wpm +...
I'll give it a go and see what the kids say too.

It's the youngsters I'm mainly thinking of. As computers are so important these days, it seems simple common sense that we should be introducing them to a keyboard that's ergonomically designed, not one that is a legacy of a bygone era. Although arguably keyboards are now themselves obsolescent - newer technologies are on the way (there's even, believe it or not, been some success with direct mind-control of electronics) but they are all still in their infancy, and I believe that the 'umble keyboard will be with us for a good few decades yet.

As for your belief that you 'might not be able to retrain' - I believe that you're wrong, though I admit that I don't have any hard facts to back me up - hence the petition! Of course you may not wish to be bothered with the hassle of it, and that's understandable: but when you consider that typing on a Dvorak means less strain on your fingers, hands, wrists and arms... if you do learn how to use it now, you might be glad that you did, in years to come.

[edit]You might want to get your youngsters to take a look at The Dvorak Zine. This is a 'web comic' that explains the issues in a far better way than a load of words [/edit]

[sdk]

Ive read a bit about dvorak, but never really thought about it until i saw this topic. i think its a nice idea but in practically, it just for me is not worth the time and effort of the governemnt, when i feel there are far more important issues.

You're not the first to suggest that there are 'more important issues' that the government should be spending our tax money on. The way I look at it is that the potential for improved health and increased productivity would pay back the investment many times over... and since addressing these many other 'far important issues' will inevitably mean heavy use of the keyboard in the process, investment in promoting a more efficient keyboard is, IMO, the one single thing that can have a direct impact on ALL of these other issues

The health aspects of it sound great, but

In regards to praticallity, what advantage is a child going to have by learning to use dvorak?

The QWERTY layout has been acknowledged for decades as a source of fatigue in those who use them a lot - and these days that includes a great many more people than it did then. (This is why Dr. Dvorak did the research and came up with his 'Simplified' layout, way back in the 1930s, in the first place). RSI, Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, other maladies are all linked to the keyboard. So, the health benefits of using an ergonomically-designed keyboard layout should, to my mind, have every parent up in arms DEMANDING that their children have access to it. The only reason they don't, to my mind, is that they don't know the option is available.

You ask for advantages to the child: one simple one is that the improved speed and accuracy that the Dvorak layout affords means that children could be spending less time typing, more time doing other things.

We ask kids to learn the alphabet in the order abc... and then we sit them in front of a keyboard that has these letters all jumbled up. It would make no difference at all to them if they were jumbled up in a different way!

Most business dont and wont use them, as standard practice is and will be for a while to come, qwerty keyboards, and there may be places where it may hinder people more than help.

The reason that businesses don't use Dvorak keyboards is due to (a) QWERTY is an entrenched standard, and (b) few businesses are even aware that there are alternatives to QWERTY.

There is, these days, no reason at all why Dvorak should not be accepted in an office environment. It is a matter of 20 seconds (I just timed myself doing it) to add a keyboard layout from those available within Windows - and, since 1986 when the Dvorak layout was defined as an ANSI standard, it has been included in Windows, Unix and Mac (and other computer operating systems).

Many Dvorak users insist that you don't even need a separate keyboard - and I would tend to agree with them, but for the fact that in some cases it's important to be certain that you're entering data with 100% accuracy (such as when entering passwords) - and in these cases it's useful to have the right legends on the keys for visual verification. USB technology now allows for more than one keyboard to be plugged in at the same time; and allows them to be 'hot-plugged' without powering the computer down.

As example, i work in IT support and we often get users who know very little about computers, if im someone who is working with dvorak keybaord, and the end user (over the phone) is using qwerty and is struglgling to find a certain key to do something....how can i advise that user where to find that key? if im not 100% sure and have a different keyboard. It may seem a bit far fetched, but its common for people to ask where paticular keys are on the keybaord, including the infamous "any" key.

I think that you'll agree that the 'infamous any key' isn't going to be a problem

I too have worked in an IT support environment, and I understand what you're talking about, but the problem you refer to can be simply addressed by having images of other layouts to hand. Not all keyboards are laid out the same way, even in the QWERTY world.

Also going back to the workplace issue, again if i used a dvorak keybaord and have to move machines (which happens a lot with pc terminals), does that mean i have change my settings, unlplug and replug my keybaord every time because other pc's dont have dvorak?

Should I infer from what you say that you aren't aware that all PCs these days DO have Dvorak built in?

As for the bi-lingual aspect, from what ive read, you cant just chop and change back and forth from qwerty to dvorak, and its recomended that if your wishing to practice dvorak, not to do it if you have quite a bit of work to do..........

You're right. As with anything, if you switch back and forth between two different methods of doing something (anything), then it will take longer to learn an unfamiliar method. Ideally, if you're already familiar with QWERTY, you need to choose your moment to learn Dvorak; a time when you don't have a ton of typing work pressing on you. But, I speak from experience: it takes just two weeks before the new layout stops being a hindrance, and from that point onwards, the enhanced speed and accuracy that the Dvorak layout affords pays back the short period of reduced output, in spades!

Again, I would point out that my emphasis is on introducing youngsters to a better layout than QWERTY. Those who have already mastered the QWERTY layout can continue to use it if they choose to: there's no reason why the two cannot exist together in harmony

I think its a nice noble cause, but as said elsewhere, there are far better things to waste the taxpayers money on

And as I said earlier, I cannot think of a single better thing to 'waste taxpayers money on' than enabling people to interact more efficiently and more comfortably with the one thing that we all increasingly use to try to solve all the other ills of the world

[dm47red]

Have signed the petition and you are up to 41 now.

I suffer with RSI due to all the typing I have done over the years. Not sure if the Dvorak keyboard would be any different to learn.

But the example about the miles we travel whilst typing convinced me to vote.

And I agree that simple features such as : amd ? / should have there own keys as in ythis modern age we use them alot where as when qwerty was designed there was no need really.

Good luck and even if you don't get 200 votes you have made a few more people aware there is another option available.

[sdk]

Have signed the petition and you are up to 41 now.

Many thanks!

I suffer with RSI due to all the typing I have done over the years.

No promises, but the Dvorak layout was specifically designed to address various issues known to haunt QWERTY, and one of those was fatigue.

I don't suffer from RSI myself, but I can vouch for the fact that typing on a Dvorak is far more comfortable than it ever was on a QWERTY layout.

Not sure if the Dvorak keyboard would be any different to learn.

Another design consideration was to make the Dvorak easier to learn. Part of what makes it so is that the repetitive lessons that are necessary to begin with - with any keyboard layout - consist of meaningful words early on, instead of the gibberish you get on a QWERTY.

I believe that part of the resistance to considering a move away from QWERTY by those who already know it well stems from the recollection of how difficult it was to learn how to type originally (on QWERTY). A large part of the skill of typing is teaching your fingers the movements, and this skill is 'transferable:' having learnt how to hit the keys using one layout, it's a relatively trivial matter to learn a different layout. Again, this was taken into account by Dr. Dvorak when designing the 'Simplified' keyboard: he deliberately based it on the existing keyboard design, where he could have come up with something radically different.

But the example about the miles we travel whilst typing convinced me to vote.

And I agree that simple features such as : amd ? / should have there own keys as in ythis modern age we use them alot where as when qwerty was designed there was no need really.

Hmm... I'm not with you there. Dvorak has many of the punctuation symbols (including ':' and '?') accessed via a shift key, as with QWERTY.

Good luck and even if you don't get 200 votes you have made a few more people aware there is another option available.

Sadly I think that it's unlikely at this late stage that the petition will achieve the minimum 200 signatures required to get a formal response from the government. I've tried my best to publicise it, but that best... hasn't been good enough.

You're right that I should take heart in knowing that I have hopefully helped to make a few more people aware that there is a better alternative to the archaic, illogical, harmful, obsolete layout that became the standard purely by being there first.