Damian. Name one time when I have not known what I was talking about. I have never claimed to be an expert.. I have only commented on things I have personal experience of, and personal knowledge of, and I always make that quite plain. I don't go rooting through Google to find something to make me look knowledgable because I don't have to. ... unlike some I could mention.
Originally Posted by dragonmist
I'll give you at least two from just the last few days: Blue tongue. You instantly brought up Pirbright rather than check your information to find the far more likely source of the infection.
This thread: you stated that the PCSO's should have attempted a rescue based on your assumption that not only did they know how to swim, but also that they would have had adequate training. You then continued to argue despite the fact you were presented with information which showed you were incorrect.
Checking Google has nothing to do with making someone look knowledgeable; it is about checking the facts, finding the opinion/s and information from the experts or from the people who actually ARE in a position to know what they are talking about because THEY have access to information which may well not be in the public domain and they are not just working on media speculation. It's about backing up what is posted with a genuinely verifiable source whose credentials can be checked, instead of merely stating "well, my mate says ..... ".
You saidA bit of an own goal Damian!Ask anyone who IS actually trained in, or has to deal with, these sort of situations and they'll tell you the same thing: the officers did the right thing.
I am trained in dealing with this sort of situation, and I did ask the people who are also trained this way. They said that the decision was wrong. More to the point, David Blunkett said they should have tried to save the boy, and he knows a darned sight more about Police rules than you do.
You saidWrong. I did not make any assumption about the disease coming from Pirbright. I said I wondered if they were working on Blue Tongue at Pirbright. They were working on an F&M vaccine, so I wondered if they were working on a Blue Tongue Vaccine, after all the outbreaks in Europe have been escalating for several years and the Government has known about this, as has DEFRA.Blue tongue. You instantly brought up Pirbright rather than check your information to find the far more likely source of the infection.
I admit it was written a bit tongue in cheek, but I was perfectly serious in asking the question. The fact you took it that I meant the infection came from Pirbright means you assumed I was unaware of the distance between the affected beast and Pirbright. I'm not that ignorant Damian. I should have known you would take it the way you did though, which says more about you trying desperately to prove a point, than it does about me.
I already knew about Blue Tongue as my second cousin who lives in Belgium, lost his herd 2 years ago. It's a dreadful disease. They were first assumed to have Foot and Mouth, but then the tests for F&M were negative. They isolated a few for research and killed the rest. Within a week infected matter was pouring out through holes in their joints and their heads were swollen. Leo sent me photos as I had never heard of it. They were the first known cases in his area, though he believed some farmers shot affected beasts and buried them in the hopes of saving the rest of their stock. as they have done to stock affected by F&M.
Why rummage through Google when I get the facts straight from the horses mouth, whether it is the Police, farmers or DEFRA.
I have had fact sheets from DEFRA since 2001 when I had to get permission to move my goats. [Before you correct me I know it was MAFF then. A rose by any other name...]
I am also concerned that if 1 beast was bitten by 1 infected midge, which is not indigenous to the UK, then the odds are in favour of more midges biting more than 1 beast, and the midges breeding here and escalating the disease.
A year ago DEFRA was in consultation with the Government , considering allowing the use of DDT again because of this threat. It doesn't surprise me that disease like this is on the increase though. The EEC banned sheep dip. They banned creosote, Vapona strips which farmers hung in sheds and barns, ICI Insect and Louse powder etc. etc. In it's place we have "safe" creosote which doesn't even kill woodworm, let alone redmite. Pyrethrum based insect killers which don't work, or Diatomaceous Earth, which does work, but very slowly, and only if the insects actually crawl through the powder. Don't bother trying to contradict me Damian. Farmers and Poultry keepers have been fighting to find an answer to these problems for years, and I belong to over 20 Forums and Groups which are trying to find answers. DEFRA only knows one answer. Shoot to Kill.
PS. What on earth makes you think Google is factual and verifiable? They get their information from sources such as the Media, which have already been edited, and they edit what they get. The end result isn't always exactly the same as the original message.
Even Hansard is heavily edited before printing. It's bulky enough even then.
Last edited by dragonmist; 24th September 2007 at 03:36 PM.
You did NOT have all the relevant information. You made assumptions based on media speculation and sensationalist reporting. Your comments were made based on the inaccurate information stating that the PCSO's watched the child drown. You then say you spoke to other officers who had the huge advantage of being fully trained and experienced, officers who were also as likely to be ignorant of the true facts as was practically everyone else commenting on the case based on what they'd heard from the media. You were clearly unaware at that point of whether the PCSO's could actually swim, let alone their level of training with regard to life saving - training which is no longer routinely given to full time officers, let alone PCSO's.
I suspect that at the time of his comments, Blunkett was also similarly ignorant of the correct information and therefore was giving comment before he should. I do, however, agree that he has a greater knowledge of Police rules and procedures and as such should have defended the PCSO's for doing as they were told instead of stupidly stating they should ignore the rules. It's all very well for a blind man to tell others to risk their lives by jumping into the water, but when it comes down to it you'll never see him doing it.
Especially with the level of training you say you had, if you cannot see the dangers involved with untrained people jumping into murky water in a flooded mine shaft after a child who has been submerged for some time that they cannot see and have no real knowledge of where the boy is, then there is no point in continuing this conversation; I might as well be banging my head against a brick wall.
Sorry to butt in but the subject in question is being strayed by discussions on other topics. Can we please keep to the subject that is mentioned about the 2 children. Thanks
i be geting called troublesmaker if that me arguings
Certainly.Sorry to butt in but the subject in question is being strayed by discussions on other topics. Can we please keep to the subject that is mentioned about the 2 children. Thanks
So, here's something nobody seems to be asking:
Why is it that the fishermen who were there at the time did not try to save the boy once he'd gone under the water? It sounds like all they did was waggle their fishing rods in front of the girl until she caught hold of one of them. So why did they not then rescue the boy when they were the ones who knew exactly where he went under? Why did they expect PCSO's who turned up some minutes after the boy had gone under to dive into a location they knew nothing about, searching for a boy that they didn't see go under?
Seems to me that it is the fishermen who stood idly by and watched him drown, not the PCSO's.
My main concern is WHERE WERE THE PARENTS WHEN THIS WAS ALL GOING ON !
Seem's they're questioning the Police but they're not questioning themselves in responding as to their whereabouts at the time.
I am begining to think this is similar to the McCanns the lack of interest in their children's welfare.
Blame someone else but NOT themselves.
Damien, the men were anglers in their 60's and did their best at the time. Using a rod to pull the girl out was sensible and completely in keeping with what I said.The girl had been in the water for the longest time and they managed to pull her out. When they turned back the boy had disappeared. They pointed out where the boy had been when they saw him last, but the pseudo cops didn't even attempt a rescue. Those are facts from the Coroner's Court... or is that all lies and hearsay too?
That sucks. David Blunket would have been apprised of the whole incident before he made his statement. He woul;d not have made a statement until after the case as it had been sub judice.
If you think the Police Officers I spoke to had not heard all about an incident that took place 4 months ago, then you are very naive. But then you are totally obsessed with being right . I shan't bother to answer you again. I wouldn't have mentioned where I got my information from, but you have to know every last nit-picking detail. Doubting Thomas needs to stick his fingers in the wounds before he'll believe. You aren't worth the bother.
Incidentally it was a pit pond, i.e. a flooded quarry not a flooded mineshaft. Who on earth would expect to catch fish in a flooded mineshaft? I think you've lost the plot as well as the argument.
Cocksparrer, they were children playing out. We are told children must be encouraged to play out rather than be couch potates playing video games. The boy was certainly old enough to be out alone, and was keeping an eye on his stepsister. I used to take my 3 year old stepbrother out when I was 13. I even took other children out to the park, to play on the swings or feed the ducks, or just for a walk. That is normal behaviour. It is unrealistic to expect his mother to be with him 24/7 at that age. He would have found that totally mortifying, and he would have been bullied at school and outside.
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