..When in Rome...blah,blah..

[mobymatt]

I'm all for a healthy, reasoned debate on immigration and I think the sheer number of illegal immigrants entering the country needs to be urgently addressed.

I am not a "bleeding heart liberal" or a "loonie leftie", but nor do I subscribe to or agree with the inflammatory language from the original post. I don't think a reasoned debate is possible when part of the opening salvo is:

If you aren't happy here then P*** OFF! We didn't force you to come here.

However, I see this thread has already attracted a score of 5 stars so maybe I'm the minority here, but just to address some of the other points:

After hearing that many cities did not want to offend other cultures by putting up Xmas lights, so they DIDN'T!

After hearing that the Birmingham council changed its opinion and let a Muslim woman have her picture on her driver's licence with her face covered.

After hearing of a Primary School in Birmingham where a boy was told that for PE they could wear Football League shirts (Aston Villa, Birmingham, West Brom etc) but NOT an England shirt as it could offend others !

Yes the above cases are examples of political correctness gone mad, but it is not immigrants who are making these crazy decisions it is City Councils led by mainly white, middle-class men who *think* it will offend others if some kid wears an England football shirt.

Birmingham City Council provided perhaps the best example of this about 8 years ago when they tried to remove any references to Christmas and call the holiday period 'Winterval' instead. After, quite rightly, being mocked and derided from all quarters including many thousands of the city's Muslims, Sikhs, Christians etc.. the Coucil were forced into a humiliating reversal and Christmas was reinstated.

The fact is many Muslims, Sikhs etc.. were incredulous at the decision - of course Christmas should be celebrated and called what it is. Some were also worried because they knew they would get the backlash from some sections of society for what was the Council's barmy decision.

Since the terrorist attacks on London, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Brits.

I was already patriotic and proud of my country before the attacks as much as I still am now. When I saw and read about the attacks I thought "murdering scumbags" in much the same way I thought "murdering scumbags"when I saw and read about the IRA bombing campaigns of the 70s , 80s and 90s.

This culture has been developed over centuries of wars, struggles, trials and victories fought by the untold masses of men and women who laid down their lives and one of the millions of men and women who have sought freedom.

Very true and after one of the bloodiest wars and greatest victories in WWII many hundreds of thousands of immigrants were welcomed with open arms and helped to rebuild the country by taking on many jobs in vital areas such as healthcare and transport amongst others.

We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from.

Yes I'm happy with my culture, but nobody has asked me to change? Also I am interested in how people did things from "where they came from" - I can't imagine my Saturday night without a nice Chinese or Indian takeaway.

"In God We Trust" is our National Motto.

Is it?? If it is I had no idea a/ We had a national motto b/ What it was. I doubt the majority of people in the street would know this too. It certainly isn't a mantra I repeat over and over again in my daily life.

If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.

A lot of faiths believe in One God - the same God so I'm not sure who that is directed at. As for God being part of "our" culture Christian churches have an attendance of less than 1 million across the nation so we can hardly say it's an active part of most people's culture in this country.

I figure if we all keep passing this to our friends (and enemies) it will also, sooner or later get back to the complainers, lets all try, please.

I figure if we all keep passing this to our friends and they agree with it then the BNP will soon become the ruling party in this country.

So those are my thoughts in my words not copied and pasted out of The Sun.

[dragonmist]

The PTB say there is no real problem with the amount of immigrants in this country. Go to Slough and try to find an English speaker to give you directions then! Every language spoken from Urdu, Swahili, Polish, Croatian, Albanian etc. etc. but not a lot of English. When I had to go into the DSS about claiming a pension etc. after my husbands death, they had to bring in an English speaking woman from Bracknell to sort out my claim.
A 5 year old girl I know very well is 1 of only 3 white children in her class. One girl refused to play or sit with her as she is not a Moslem. A coloured child refused to sit next to her because she is white. If only 3 in the class are white, and half of the rest do not speak English as their first language, how can they claim there is no problem? But then, if you can rig things so your child goes to a select school like Tony Blair did for his sons, or pay for a Private School, then you don't have a problem do you?
There is a school in Slough where every child is coloured. Apartheid is illegal, but now we have segregation by choice. The Moslems want more Moslem Schools. The Catholics have always segregated their children if at all possible. The Cof E Schools now accept anyone of any faith. They are not allowed now to have Christian assemblies, only multi faith assemblies.
I think it is time we stopped turning cartwheels to appease other Faiths, Races and Cultures.
My 13 year old Grandson is taught English by a Polish teacher. He says he can't understand her. She gets angry, and swears at them in Polish.
He is taught history by an Irishman who says tree instead of three, taught instead of thought etc. Apart from making sentences meaningless, my grandson cracks up each time he does it, and gets a detention. He had 60 detentions from this teacher last year. Now he is in trouble for refusing to stay behind after school and do the detentions.
The Education authorities should insist all children and teachers speak the language before entering our schools.

[mobymatt]

The PTB say there is no real problem with the amount of immigrants in this country. Go to Slough and try to find an English speaker to give you directions then! Every language spoken from Urdu, Swahili, Polish, Croatian, Albanian etc. etc. but not a lot of English. When I had to go into the DSS about claiming a pension etc. after my husbands death, they had to bring in an English speaking woman from Bracknell to sort out my claim.

I can't comment on the specific examples you give as I have no knowledge of the area of Slough or of the DSS office - that experience must have been very frustrating.

On the language issue I do agree that everyone should attempt to learn to read, write and speak English on at least a basic level. Communication is a vital tool and can quickly build up or break down barriers between people and also on a practical level day-to-day life is obviously much easier when we understand what the other person is trying to say.

In my first post in this thread I was merely pointing out there are also many 'Brits Abroad' who go into "SPEAKY THE ENGLISH?" mode when dealing with the native population and don't make any real attempt to learn their language or integrate with the local culture, cuisine or way of live.

A 5 year old girl I know very well is 1 of only 3 white children in her class. One girl refused to play or sit with her as she is not a Moslem. A coloured child refused to sit next to her because she is white. If only 3 in the class are white, and half of the rest do not speak English as their first language, how can they claim there is no problem?

Let me first say that we should not be looking towards 5 year old children as beacons of light to guide us when it comes to getting along with each other. Some children can be very spiteful even at a young age and are just as likely to refuse to sit next to another child becuase "they smell of wee", "they have boggly eyes", "they've got ginger hair" etc..

Why is it necessarily a problem the 5 year old is only 1 of 3 white children in that particular class? Isn't a good education and developing social skills the most important role the school should play in a child's life? I agree about the language "barrier" being a problem as I've already mentioned.

The Moslems want more Moslem Schools. The Catholics have always segregated their children if at all possible. The Cof E Schools now accept anyone of any faith. They are not allowed now to have Christian assemblies, only multi faith assemblies.

I disagree entirely with single-faith schools. Additionally I believe there should be a basic level of understanding of different faiths, but other than that religion and education should be separate.

He is taught history by an Irishman who says tree instead of three, taught instead of thought etc. Apart from making sentences meaningless, my grandson cracks up each time he does it, and gets a detention. He had 60 detentions from this teacher last year. Now he is in trouble for refusing to stay behind after school and do the detentions.

So it is not just people who can't speak English, but people who can't speak English 'properly' who shouldn't be allowed to teach? Maybe people with Yorkshire, Brummie, Welsh etc.. accents shouldn't be allowed to teach because of the way they pronounce words? If I went into a shop owned by an Irishman and he asked me for "tree pounds" I think I might just be able to understand what he was asking for without climbing up the nearest Oak checking the bark for coins.

I would respectfully suggest that over the course of a school year (30 weeks?) if a pupil is averaging 2 detentions a week from the same teacher there is a wider problem than the way a teacher might pronounce a word or two.

[mobymatt]

This prompted the editorial below written by a UK citizen. Published in a British tabloid newspaper.


IMMIGRANTS. NOT BRITONS, MUST ADAPT.

Take It Or Leave It.
I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on London, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Brits.

However, the dust from the attacks has barely settled and the "politically correct" crowd begin complaining about the possibility that our patriotism is offending others.

I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Britain. However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand.

This idea of London being a multicultural centre for community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Britons, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of wars, struggles, trials and victories fought by the untold masses of men and women who laid down their lives and one of the millions of men and women who have sought freedom.

We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese,

Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language! "In God We Trust" is our National Motto.

This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools.

If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture. If St. George's cross offends you, or you don't like " A Fair Go", then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.

We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this.

But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our National Motto, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great British freedom,

"THE RIGHT TO LEAVE".

If you aren't happy here then P*** OFF! We didn't force you to come here.

You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted. Pretty easy really, when you think about it. I figure if we all keep passing this to our friends (and enemies) it will also, sooner or later get back to the complainers, lets all try, please.

Without trying to sound like Columbo...

The thing that finally cracked it for me was the 'National Motto' of "In God We Trust" part of the above.

I knew I had seen it before on an American dollar so I did some research and guess what:

http://www.breakthechain.org/exclusives/beamerican.html

Wow! That seems awfully similar to the opinion expressed in the 'British Tabloid' doesn't it?

So can I ask the OP what date this appeared in the newspaper and what was the newspaper called?

[dragonmist]

Hypnotoad, you have totally missed the point. I am actually mixed race myself, but take after my mother's side of the family with pale skin, and as a youngster I had white-blonde hair. I have blue eyes. My father was half Navajo. I could equally as easily have had his skin colouration and dark eyes, so it's not a question of racialism. The point I am making, if you read my post , is that there are so many immigrant children in her class, that when she needs help, the assistants and teacher are too busy with children who do not speak much english. The politicians say there isn't a problem, but there is. If the boot was on the other foot, and she refused to sit with a black or Moslem child, the Social Workers would be round to check if the family are racist. Not far-fetched. It has happened to 1 family here. Their daughter refused to sit next to a coloured boy. On enquiry the Social Worker asigned to them discovered she didn't want to sit with any boy, black, white or green with purple spots. She wanted to sit with her friend, a girl.
The Irish teacher at my grandson's school is a pain in the butt. A Manchunian or Brummie accent is fine. Mispronunciation on that scale doesn't matter serving in a shop, but it does matter when teaching children. It doesn't help keep discipline in the class. All of the kids laugh at him, but only the same 3 get detentions.

[mobymatt]

Hypnotoad, you have totally missed the point. I am actually mixed race myself, but take after my mother's side of the family with pale skin, and as a youngster I had white-blonde hair. I have blue eyes. My father was half Navajo. I could equally as easily have had his skin colouration and dark eyes, so it's not a question of racialism. The point I am making, if you read my post , is that there are so many immigrant children in her class, that when she needs help, the assistants and teacher are too busy with children who do not speak much english. The politicians say there isn't a problem, but there is. If the boot was on the other foot, and she refused to sit with a black or Moslem child, the Social Workers would be round to check if the family are racist. Not far-fetched. It has happened to 1 family here. Their daughter refused to sit next to a coloured boy. On enquiry the Social Worker asigned to them discovered she didn't want to sit with any boy, black, white or green with purple spots. She wanted to sit with her friend, a girl.
The Irish teacher at my grandson's school is a pain in the butt. A Manchunian or Brummie accent is fine. Mispronunciation on that scale doesn't matter serving in a shop, but it does matter when teaching children. It doesn't help keep discipline in the class. All of the kids laugh at him, but only the same 3 get detentions.

Hello Dragonmist,

The point I am making, if you read my post , is that there are so many immigrant children in her class, that when she needs help, the assistants and teacher are too busy with children who do not speak much english.

I read your post and that wasn't the point you were making. You said a child wouldn't sit next to another 5 year old child because they "weren't Moslem" or "were white". If you want to make the point you think you were making then I would be happy to hear it and discuss it with you.

The Irish teacher at my grandson's school is a pain in the butt. A Manchunian or Brummie accent is fine. Mispronunciation on that scale doesn't matter serving in a shop, but it does matter when teaching children. It doesn't help keep discipline in the class. All of the kids laugh at him, but only the same 3 get detentions.

You obviously love your grandson very much and we all stick up for our family. However, if you truly believe everyone is laughing at that teacher yet only 3 pupils are getting the blame/punishment then you should make a complaint to the school.

[emma5721]

hypotoad you need to get a life really

english children and non english children need to learn english from a proper english teacher

end of story

shut the **** up with your bull****.................ok? its jus tNOT ON..................

[mobymatt]

hypotoad you need to get a life really

english children and non english children need to learn english from a proper english teacher

end of story

shut the **** up with your bull****.................ok? its jus tNOT ON..................

I have a life thanks.

I've already said on an earlier post I believe people living in this country should learn to speak English at least on a basic level.

Being a teacher is the most stressful job in this country according to 'official' stats and I can well believe it - would you do it?

So what's a "proper english teacher"? in your words/opinion?

[treatsandtreasures]

My head is still buzzing from reading all these posts so can I just pick out one area which is close to my heart and say that effective learning is about clear communication and this means clear sending and receiving of information. Teachers need to be good communicators and at the very heart of things is every child's ability to learn from them. If a child can't learn from someone something needs to be done for all concerned. Children are our future and they all need encouragement to reach their full potential and help to find what that is. Just my thoughts on a tiny part of this discussion.

Marina

[dragonmist]

Hypnotoad. The teacher speaks mangled English, mispronouncing basic words. This is a fact. I have spoken to him.
The children all laugh at him. This is a fact.
There are only 3 being punished. This is also a fact. If you don't like it. Tough. My daughter has complained to the school, and was told to maintain discipline he must do the detentions. If he must be kept in, then the whole class should be kept in.

A 5 year old girl I know very well is 1 of only 3 white children in her class. One girl refused to play or sit with her as she is not a Moslem. A coloured child refused to sit next to her because she is white. If only 3 in the class are white, and half of the rest do not speak English as their first language, how can they claim there is no problem? But then, if you can rig things so your child goes to a select school like Tony Blair did for his sons, or pay for a Private School, then you don't have a problem do you?

I think this is quite clear. My point being the PTB say that rising numbers of immigrant children are not causing a problem. They are, but not in the schools their children go to. This is also a fact.
It is also a fact that the Education Authorities are recruiting teachers from the EEC, who quite often do not speak English clearly. An accent is not the problem. Clarity and pronunciation is.