p/c brigade gone barmy ie hug a hoodie

[damian_steele]

I'm not sure what race or religeon has got to do with it Damian?

And there I was thinking that an example showing another group who are viewed with (mostly groundless) suspicion simply because of their appearance and the perceived threat that goes with it, would be easily understood by those here.

Well, it just goes to show that sometimes even I over-estimate people here.

.. the hoodies issue is that the hoody is being used as a tool for crime and antisocial behaviour.

No, it isn't. It is being used by some people in that way. Your assertion appears to be that ALL people who wear hoodies are criminals and hoodies are their uniform. You are wrong. There are hundreds of thousands of people who wear such tops and do not commit crimes.

It's not as if we're talking about a handfull of folk here, we're talking about a nationwide problem.

And you are suggesting that Muslims sympathising with, calling for, planning and carrying out bomb attacks isn't? Have you somehow missed the anti-terror raids which have taken place up and down the whole country? My example still stands.

If you were a shop owner would you allow folk to walk around your shop carrying tools which are well known for being used to commit crimes ?. No of course you wouldn't, who would ?

Oh, well, in that case let's ban everyone who wears a baseball cap, too. Further more, let's call for a ban on tights in case robbers use them as headgear. Let's get rid of all motor cycle helmets, since they too have been used. Hell, why don't we ban all forms of face masks while we're at it?

A couple of other points about the hoody... It's not only youths who wear them, plenty of folk in their 20's and 30's and older, wear them too.

Yes, and are you saying that they are all criminals too?

The other thing is that we're not talking about banning them, we're talking about shop owners, landlords, whatever, having the right to refuse folk wearing them onto their premises. It's not as if we're talking about a law which bans them, we're simply talking about the shop/business owners rights.

Which, despite the misunderstood rhetoric from Cameron, the shop keepers still have.

A blanket ban on hoodies does not solve the problem. Shopkeepers still have the right to ask people to lower the hood or remove headgear if they choose. Those who refuse can still be asked to leave. It is a compromise which most people will understand and not be offended by. Simply saying "you can't come in because of what you wear" does little more than cause anger and upset. It brands everyone as a criminal whether they have actually done anything or not.

Here in Huddersfield there are several shops with notices up which ask people to remove any headgear when entering the premises. If folk don't remove their hat/hoody/whatever then they are asked to leave the premises. Why should that right be removed ?, there is no justification for removing that right.

Where exactly do you get this idea that the Law is going to change?

It seems to me that you have misunderstood what Cameron was on about. You've taken the tabloid approach and got all up in arms about things before reading the detail.

David Cameron's speech says nothing more than has already been said by the Labour Party in their glib "Tough on crime, Tough on the causes of crime" speech. All the man is saying is that the current measures are not working as people are reacting to the symptoms instead of the cause.

... some of the business owners who benefit most from having the right to refuse folk wearing hoodies onto their premises are the asian folk who often stay open late into the night when all the other local shops are shut.

Right. Of course. Because it is only Asians who have late night shops, isn't it?

So what do we do ?, A - Introduce a law that takes away the business/shop owners (and their staff) rights

I'll ask again. Where do you get this idea that anyone is introducing a new law to specifically remove the rights of shopkeepers/workers?

[silkcityuk2]

i honestly do not believe anybody thinks that all people that wear hoodies are criminals
nor that race colour or creed has anything to do with it..
my point was a bit missleading,the hoodie was just a part of the problem
the idea that we should treat anybody for doing wrong just astounds me

[fairywishes]

All of my kids wear hoodies some times. So does dennis, i think even i have one somewhere. lmao

However ... there is a world of difference between wearing a hooded top and walking about in gangs, high as a kite and being abusive and threatening to people passing by.

IF you tried to HUG ( lmao ) incredulous ... some of the so called HOODIES round here, you would most likely get knifed.

BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD me thinks.

[yorkiesauctions]

And there I was thinking that an example showing another group who are viewed with (mostly groundless) suspicion simply because of their appearance and the perceived threat that goes with it, would be easily understood by those here.

Well, it just goes to show that sometimes even I over-estimate people here.

Here we go again, a typical Damian reply to somebody who does not agree with him. (sigh!)

If you continue true to form your post will contain - Insults/put downs (as above), attempts to portray yourself as somesort of superior intellect (as per the "even I" comment above), drama queen tactic's (as with your example in your previous post), silly and/or snide remarks, skipping points which don't sit well with your own theory/view, twisting what has been said to try and make it mean something it obviously didn't mean, conveniently overlooking statements made by the other person, dragging non-related subjects in order to cloud the issue...and probably other stuff which I have forgotten at the moment.

Your post's have become predictable, ridiculous, and tedious. Which is why I never bother with your threads anymore. It's a shame because I used to enjoy many of your threads and agree with a lot of what you said, but for some reason you now seem more interested in playing somesort of silly point scoring game and it has drastically effected the content of your post's in a very negative way.

Okay Damian I'll be upfront with you, I don't have the time (or the energy) to play your one upmanship games right now. I've been working 70 hours per week for over a month now and to be quite honest I have much better things to do with my time at the moment. But I will reply to this post and then call it a day and leave you to have the last word because I know how you like to fire one last shot before a line is drawn under a thread.

So here goes lad...

In reply to your statement above. As usual with your examples you have gone for the extreme and dramatic, and to be quite honest - rather silly comparrison.

No, it isn't. It is being used by some people in that way. Your assertion appears to be that ALL people who wear hoodies are criminals and hoodies are their uniform. You are wrong. There are hundreds of thousands of people who wear such tops and do not commit crimes.

Go back and read my post, take note of where I said that I wasn't saying that everyone who wears a hooded top is a criminal or thug.

And you are suggesting that Muslims sympathising with, calling for, planning and carrying out bomb attacks isn't? Have you somehow missed the anti-terror raids which have taken place up and down the whole country? My example still stands.

More drama queen comments Damian. Let's not forget that we are talking about folk wearing hooded tops here.

Oh, well, in that case let's ban everyone who wears a baseball cap, too. Further more, let's call for a ban on tights in case robbers use them as headgear. Let's get rid of all motor cycle helmets, since they too have been used. Hell, why don't we ban all forms of face masks while we're at it?

More silly and childish comments Damian, you really are staying true to form lad.

Yes, and are you saying that they are all criminals too?

(sigh) No.

Which, despite the misunderstood rhetoric from Cameron, the shop keepers still have.

A blanket ban on hoodies does not solve the problem. Shopkeepers still have the right to ask people to lower the hood or remove headgear if they choose. Those who refuse can still be asked to leave. It is a compromise which most people will understand and not be offended by. Simply saying "you can't come in because of what you wear" does little more than cause anger and upset. It brands everyone as a criminal whether they have actually done anything or not.

At last ! a valid point !

Yup I agree with you on that point Damian. I'll explain my outburst about laws when answering your next question below.

Where exactly do you get this idea that the Law is going to change?

I don't think I said it was going to change, but I do think that people in some quarters want it to change. I'll explain my reasons for that below.

It seems to me that you have misunderstood what Cameron was on about. You've taken the tabloid approach and got all up in arms about things before reading the detail.

No I didn't, my opinion took account of other information which I had heard on one of the local radio stations.

David Cameron's speech says nothing more than has already been said by the Labour Party in their glib "Tough on crime, Tough on the causes of crime" speech. All the man is saying is that the current measures are not working as people are reacting to the symptoms instead of the cause.

Yeah I agree again, it's more or less the same thing which various MP's have been spouting since the late 80's.

Right. Of course. Because it is only Asians who have late night shops, isn't it?

There you go with the race card again, you really don't mind how low you sink to score a point do you Damian.

Around here (Huddersfield) 99% of the shops that stay open untill 10 or 11pm are shops which are run or owned by asian/indian folk. Nearly all the shops around here which are run or owned by white folk close at 6pm. Thats a fact, sorry if it doesn't sit well with your race ploy to score a point Damian.

I'll ask again. Where do you get this idea that anyone is introducing a new law to specifically remove the rights of shopkeepers/workers?

I was listening to a local radio station which had a local MP on it (from Bingley I think ?, I was working at the time so wasn't concentrating on the radio), the MP had got together with two local "youth leaders" (dunno what they are ?) and was talking to other MP's and euro-MP's(none of which were named) about submitting an application for a change in the law to be put forward. They claim that the ban on hoodies was an infringement on youths rights, they also claim that it should be unlawfull to refuse to serve anyone, or to allow them access, simply because of how they look or because of what they are wearing. The MP claimed that he has approached several other MP's behind the scenes to test the waters and was very pleased at the feedback that he recieved. The "youth leaders" also claimed that they have had legal people working on it for a while now and with the MP's support they stand a very good chance at forcing a change in the law.

That's all I know about it up to now, but that is where my rant about a law change came from.

Right thats me done, I've not been home long and I'm bloody starved. Sorry for the spelling mistakes and rubbish grammar but I rushed through this and I'm rubbish at spelling anyway (hardly any education).

This is my last post on this, can't be bothered with it to be honest, too bloody knackered.

So here is your chance to get the last word lad.

[starbug]

All of my kids wear hoodies some times. So does dennis, i think even i have one somewhere. lmao

However ... there is a world of difference between wearing a hooded top and walking about in gangs, high as a kite and being abusive and threatening to people passing by.

IF you tried to HUG ( lmao ) incredulous ... some of the so called HOODIES round here, you would most likely get knifed.

BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD me thinks.

So true...

A lot of this is about image and being "big" and "hard as fk" in front of your mates to earn respect.

unfortunatly it appeasrs to be getting out of control these days, whilst the 2 sides argue over the best approach to the situation.

I wonder what these "hoodies" will be like. when they are in their 40's and look back on their lives.

[damian_steele]

Here we go again, a typical Damian reply to somebody who does not agree with him. (sigh!)

Very poor, Yorkie. I really did expect much more of you. Instead of dealing with the content of the post you decide to attack me personally. I had thought you were above that, but obviously not.

.. skipping points which don't sit well with your own theory/view

In case you haven't noticed in all the time you've been posting on message boards/forums, Yorkie, it is perfectly acceptable - and encouraged - practice for replies to only contain the parts of a message that are being replied to. If you want me to quote every single line that you have posted and then reply to every single point then you are going to be out of luck.

twisting what has been said to try and make it mean something it obviously didn't mean ...

That's the funny thing with language, isn't it old chum? Different people will see things in different ways. For example, I included a perfectly ligitimate example of over-reaction in a previous post and you floundered around like I had written my post in a foreign language. Yet despite your obvious inability to understand what I was getting at, you deliberately twisted what I said and accused me of "clouding the issue".

... dragging non-related subjects in order to cloud the issue...

There you are again with your unprovable and incorrect accusation. Simply because you fail to understand the point of a subject or event being mentioned does not mean that raising said subject or event was an attempt to obfuscate.

Your post's have become predictable, ridiculous, and tedious. Which is why I never bother with your threads anymore.

If you want to go down the road of personal attacks, Yorkie, I could mention the threads you post about your endless photo taking and waffle about your family which I find tedious beyond belief. However, until you were so downright rude to raise the subject, I wasn't going to bother mentioning it. However, I suggest that if you are so pained when reading my threads/posts, you know where to find the Ignore list.

It's a shame because I used to enjoy many of your threads and agree with a lot of what you said

Really? That'll be why you almost never posted on any of them, is it?

Okay Damian I'll be upfront with you, I don't have the time (or the energy) to play your one upmanship games right now. I've been working 70 hours per week for over a month now...

Something else to add to the list of tedious things you continually bang on about; what are you after, a medal?

In reply to your statement above. As usual with your examples you have gone for the extreme and dramatic, and to be quite honest - rather silly comparrison.

Extreme AND dramatic? Yet still you failed to understand my point and had to have it explained to you. Sounds very much like sour grapes to me.

Go back and read my post, take note of where I said that I wasn't saying that everyone who wears a hooded top is a criminal or thug.

Of course you were. Any time you support a blanket ban on hoodies being worn in shops, you are tarring every wearer of a hoodie with the same brush. You can pretend otherwise as much as you like, but the truth is you've already admitted it.

More drama queen comments Damian. Let's not forget that we are talking about folk wearing hooded tops here.

No, we were discussing whether it was right to make an arbitrary decision to penalise an entire group of people based on the actions of a minority. That, by the way, was exactly my point when referring to the Muslims.

I don't think I said it was going to change

Here in Huddersfield there are several shops with notices up which ask people to remove any headgear when entering the premises. If folk don't remove their hat/hoody/whatever then they are asked to leave the premises. Why should that right be removed ?, there is no justification for removing that right.

There is only one way that the stated right of refusal could be removed and that is by a change in the law.

No I didn't, my opinion took account of other information which I had heard on one of the local radio stations.

A point which you failed to mention where it would have been appropriate to do so in the discussion of a point raised in a thread specifically quoting a stated source.

There you go with the race card again, you really don't mind how low you sink to score a point do you Damian.

Oh, I see. You specifically relate the topic to a single ethnic group because it suits you at the time, yet it is me who is playing the race card? Again, very poor, Yorkie.

Around here (Huddersfield) 99% of the shops that stay open untill 10 or 11pm are shops which are run or owned by asian/indian folk. Nearly all the shops around here which are run or owned by white folk close at 6pm. Thats a fact, sorry if it doesn't sit well with your race ploy to score a point Damian.

So we've now moved from talking about an issue which you yourself have stated effects the whole of the UK and instead we are suddenly only talking about the shops in your specific, somewhat culturally unrepresentative neck of the woods? You can't have it both ways, Yorkie, either we discuss this on a national level or we don't. You don't get to pick and choose based on what suits you at the time.

I was listening to a local radio station which had a local MP on it (from Bingley I think ?, I was working at the time so wasn't concentrating on the radio), the MP had got together with two local "youth leaders" (dunno what they are ?) and was talking to other MP's and euro-MP's(none of which were named) about submitting an application for a change in the law to be put forward. They claim that the ban on hoodies was an infringement on youths rights, they also claim that it should be unlawfull to refuse to serve anyone, or to allow them access, simply because of how they look or because of what they are wearing. The MP claimed that he has approached several other MP's behind the scenes to test the waters and was very pleased at the feedback that he recieved. The "youth leaders" also claimed that they have had legal people working on it for a while now and with the MP's support they stand a very good chance at forcing a change in the law.

So let me see if I can sum that up. You half listened to a local station where some people whose names you don't know talked in vague terms about a poorly thought through idea which could never make it into law and on that basis you decided to half-quote them here? That about it?

This is my last post on this, can't be bothered with it to be honest...

A typical tactic which is rolled out by those with a weak position. Well, if it makes you feel better, you take your toys and go home and leave the business of discussion to those with more stamina.

[bigusdickus]

damon yuo knoe buger all aboot efferythinng

[thehoneyant]

All the man is saying is that the current measures are not working as people are reacting to the symptoms instead of the cause.

That's what I said in a roundabout tongue in cheek way. We could always just shoot the fashion designers, and get rid of the perceived problem's in one fell swoop.

The man at the sharp end David Cameron has talked a load of tripe since 2001 when he was elected to the safe Conservative candidate seat for Witney. Political point scoring has been his forte. ......gimme a break.......yes I have met him.... and I did not like him....... My personal opinion of course.

He will try to reposition his party as tough on the causes of crime.

Why reposition. .......I call it moving the goalposts for media effect. that comes across as a we are better than them ( the Labour Party) syndrome.
LOL It has had an effect............given him a lot of news coverage.................like it did when he put himself in Wandsworth prison last year.........all in a good cause of course.

There's plenty of repiles here, when this debate was first mooted by the Labour party,May 2005. read if you want. (no pressure)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/4537459.stm

Now don't forget boys and girls, don't wear gloves in the winter, else they might think you are trying to hide your fingerprints. Give me strength !!

[silkcityuk2]

oh no
i have brought a hoodie,quick lock me up

or infact no all give me a hug

[thehoneyant]

oh no
i have brought a hoodie,quick lock me up

or infact no all give me a hug

Group hug, group hug.