St George

[cambrensis]

Happy St George's Day!!

I meant to say this first thing, but had a minor problem with Harri so I forgot! Apologies!

Strangely there was a brief mention of this on BBC web page this morning, and they mentioned other areas which had the same Patron Saint - they managed to omit Normandie in France! Crazy, as it was the Normans who introduced St George to England.

[moonwitch]

I'm not a big fan of St George

I would go with this guy as a patron saint for England if I were so inclined

[cambrensis]

Well...was simply surprised that it took a Welshman to mention the day! Especially as we have a few around who consider themselves to be patriots!
There are various claims about the first Patron saint, especially as the Angles and Saxons were separate kingdoms until fairly late, and were not truly amalgamated under one flag until the Norman invasion. The earliest Patron Saint of the Saxons appears to have been St Andrew (the Saxons had dominated the Southern part of the East until 1066).

[moonwitch]

I'm not a patriot, and I'm not really the type to share my beliefs in an obvious way on the forum unless it was in passing conversation on a chat thread.

I would favour Edmund over George because Edmund was English and for no other reason really.

[cambrensis]

I'm not a patriot, and I'm not really the type to share my beliefs in an obvious way on the forum unless it was in passing conversation on a chat thread.

I would favour Edmund over George because Edmund was English and for no other reason really.

I was not singling you out as a Patriot, Moonie...I only offered up St George as a general goodwill gesture, especially as good old Shakespeare is involved as well.
I used to work in West Suffolk and, of course, Bury St Edmund's was the location of Head Office, an interesting place to visit.

[theElench]

Shouldn't Pelagius also be a contender as a replacement for St. George?

Born and brought up a Christian in England a century before the arrival St. Augustine of Canterbury, it was possibly his version of Christianity that kept the flame alive in the south until missionaries from Rome arrived to find a flourishing church in England.

He is forgotten because he lost the argument with St. Augustine of Hippo over "Original Sin" and excommunicated. Probably more to do with church politics and Rome's determination to establish its primacy rather than anything "unholy" about his version of the message.

In view of the later Reformation and split from the Roman version he'd make a good candidate in my view, a life-long Christian and born in Britain but not canonised by Rome.

[cambrensis]

Shouldn't Pelagius also be a contender as a replacement for St. George?

Born and brought up a Christian in England...

Sorry! Select whomsoever you wish, but Pelagius was not born in Christian England! Check his dates! (354-418 A.D.) Maximilianus Maximus did not withdraw the legions until 383 A.D., the very late 4th Century. Pelagius was in his late 20s!) The Angles, Saxons and Scots did not invade until the 5th Century and Pelagius is usually referred to as a "Celtic Monk".

Pope Gregory's sending of Augustine in the 6th Century (597, I think...) was intended to re-establish Christianity in Southern Britain. It had been almost eradicated by the pagan invasions. As the Celtic version of Christianity was of Greek origin and preceded the Roman conquest there were definite differences, but those same differences were often debated between Roman bishops as well. They concerned the date of Easter, for the most part, and this was finally dealt with in what is now the U.K. in the 7th century at the Synod of Whitby when it was agreed to follow the Roman system of dating (664 A.D.) This brought the Celtic (Greek) Church known by Pelagius in line with the Roman Church. So far as I know, all western churches, Protestant and Catholic, follow this tradition.

(For those who are trying to follow but not particularly concerned, please do not confuse the two Augustines mentioned.)

[theElench]

I didn't actually say he was "born in Christian England", I said he was "born "A" Christian in England". I've tried to post a longer explanation but am having "Connectivity Issues" so this will have to do (if it posts).

[cambrensis]

I didn't actually say he was "born in Christian England", I said he was "born "A" Christian in England". I've tried to post a longer explanation but am having "Connectivity Issues" so this will have to do (if it posts).

The same applies...there was no England for him to be born in. My actual phrase there is due to a typo which I did not spot. Sorry!

I seem to be having posting problems too, but they take the form of a delay of several seconds.

I've always been puzzled by St Andrew and Scotland. There is no evidence that the Irish tribes had different choices, so I'd have expected Patrick to be the Patron Saint, although there are a few dating problems.