Scottish Independence... What are your thoughts?

[PetBazaar]

Hi. Well, I'm not Scottish, I'm English, but I love Scotland to bits. I would love to live somewhere in Scotland. So, I hope you don't mind if I offer you my thoughts on this. I think if Scotland went Independent it would be a sad thing. After over 300 years as being part of a United Kingdom. How many people have you spoken to want independence. As people say independence is a nice thing, but seriously, could Scotland go it alone and survive.

English comments are particularly welcome, it's always interesting to hear what others think. As for people I've spoken to who want independence, it's probably split about 60-40 in favour of the union amongst people that I know. However, it's generally accepted that Yes voters are more likely to actually vote than No voters, so that makes things pretty close amongst the folk I know.

Could Scotland survive on it's own? Yes, undoubtedly. It might be painfull to begin with, but we'd get there.

As for the EU, whether we vote Yes or No, what you describe will probably continue, so it's a bit of a moot point.

[suesjools]

It's not so much what brought the question up after 300 years, it's more that it's a question that has never gone away.

The Act of Union was signed in 1707
Ony 6 years later in 1713 Scottish politicians had a serious attempt at terminating the treaty (defeated by 4 proxy votes in the House of Lords).
By 1715 the first Jacobite Rebellion kicked off. Followed by another in 1745
In 1791 Robert Burns wrote "Such A Parcel of Rogues In A Nation" which summed up the feelings at the time. It's worth a read.

Another good read, which gives a brief history is in the BBC History Section here.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british...union_01.shtml

Thanks for the link, will check it out. This fascinates me on the personal level as well as the political, as a good percentage of my ancestors came to the U.S. from Ireland and Scotland.

Best wishes for many sales to all,

[PetBazaar]

The current Treaty of the European Union as amended by the treaty of Lisbon has the following provisions regarding leaving and joining the European Union:

Article 50 of the Treaty contains the basis in European Union law for a country to leave the European Union.

Article 49 of the Treaty contains the basis in European Union law for a country to join the European Union.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...13:0046:en:PDF

As you can see, there are no specific clauses in the Treaty to address the issues arising when a member State of the European Union separates into two or more independent new States.

So with that in mind, doesn't it seem peculiar that William Hague was on TV saying that "people "should be in no doubt" that if Scotland left the UK it would have to reapply for European Union membership".

The options are, that he knows something that we don't. Or, that a government minister is deliberately lying to the public.

Even more amusing, we had Alistair Darling on TV last night admitting (once you cut through the waffle) that Labour would prefer that Scotland was governed by the Conservatives within the UK, than by Scots of any political persuasion... even Labour.

[DandC_Warehouse]

I saw that, he also said its a hell of alot closer than people think.

[westlondoncarparts]

With regard to what William Hague has said in his speech today, and with regard to what I posted yesterday, it is still correct that in the relevant European Union law as represented by the current Treaty of the European Union there are no specific clauses in the Treaty to address the issues arising when a member State of the European Union separates into two or more independent new States and all the parts wish to remain part of the EU.

The text of William Hague’s speech today can be found at:
https://www.gov.uk/government/speech...s-paper-launch

William Hague’s comments about Scotland's membership of the European Union are flawed. His evidence in his speech to support his view does not stand up.

He refers to comments made by various European Union officials. These comments all relate to a situation where a part of a Member State has already left the Member State and then wishes to negotiate to become part of the EU from outside of the original Member State and from outside the EU. The officials concerned say that the legal basis for such comments, which can be challenged, is that the act of leaving the original Member State means that the separating part is no longer effectively a signatory to the various EU related treaties over the years and is therefore no longer part of the EU and has no EU membership recognition in EU law. The Scottish situation will be different to this. Scotland is intending to negotiate the terms of its membership of the EU between the date of the results of the Referendum and the date when it becomes independent and whilst it is still part of the UK and is still part of the EU. Within this time frame, there is no requirement in European Union law for Scotland to leave the European Union if it wants to separate from the United Kingdom in the future so the situation of Scottish reapplication for European Union membership would not arise. Mr.Salmond has no intention of taking Scotland out of the European Union during this time frame or upon Independence so the situation of Scottish reapplication for European Union membership would not arise.

As an example of the problem with William Hague’s speech, European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso’s comments to the House of Lords at the end of last year relate to the situation where a part of a Member State has already left the Member State and then wishes to become part of the EU from outside of the original Member State. This will not be the Scottish situation and William Hague should ensure that he is comparing like with like when he makes his comments.
http://www.parliament.uk/documents/l...hat_101212.pdf

The official position of the current Scottish Government regarding European Union membership and the legal basis thereof can be found at:
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2013/11/5894/14

The Scottish Government’s argument is that because it would seek to negotiate EU membership terms that are not exactly the same as those currently of the UK, the legal basis for the membership negotiation process between Scotland and the European Union before Independence would be Article 48 of the current Treaty of the European Union. This would trigger the need to update or to amend the Treaty of the European Union. As the European Union is a democratic institution and respects the views of individual member States and their electorates, local national law in some European Union States will require that referenda be hold in those countries to accept or to reject the terms of Scottish membership of the European Union through an amended Treaty of the European Union. That would include the Westminster Parliament where legislation is already on the Statute Book requiring a referendum on any changes to EU treaties.

The bottom line on all of this is that because the current Treaty of the European Union does not address the issue of member States splitting, it will have to make the most of a bad job and will have to deal with the Scottish situation as best it can within existing EU law.

It is to be expected from politicians and from the popular press that there will be all sorts of lack of understanding of detail and creative interpretations to support their political objectives in the Scottish debate. The challenge for the Scottish electorate will be to separate fact from fiction and in the case of the European Union to get the arguments grounded back to what European Union law says and or does not say. Scotland is a great country and the Scottish electorate have the right to expect the highest standards of truth and transparency in such an important debate.

[PetBazaar]

Scotland is a great country and the Scottish electorate have the right to expect the highest standards of truth and transparency in such an important debate.

From what I've seen so far, that appears to be a lost cause. Both sides appear as bad as each other at spinning the story to suit their own ends.

And the press? Well, the less said about them the better. The main tabloid is practically an extension of the Labour party press office. And one of the main "quality" papers seems to just hate everything to do with Salmond and the SNP. The others appear to just toe the Unionist line with no questions asked. Only one stands out and that's the Herald, which should take a bow for being the only one to question the arguments of both sides.

[Salomina27]

Hi. Well, I'm not Scottish, I'm English, but I love Scotland to bits. I would love to live somewhere in Scotland. So, I hope you don't mind if I offer you my thoughts on this. I think if Scotland went Independent it would be a sad thing. After over 300 years as being part of a United Kingdom. How many people have you spoken to want independence. As people say independence is a nice thing, but seriously, could Scotland go it alone and survive. Your leader is all for independence and joining the EU. My God, join the EU and you might as well close Scotland down. The EU is nothing but a luxurious gravy train for the rich to get richer. YOU my dear friend and all the Scottish public will be just become dregs of the bottom of a barrel. UK are paying £50m a day, plus extra bonuses when EU cries for more money to keep the wolves from the door. Do you want to be told what you can do and say, lose your freedom, your Human Rights, be classed as racist if you are White British. Do you want to lose your laws, freedom, and rights and have laws forced on you by the EU. Do you want your country overrun by immigrants, criminals, gypsies, from other countries, who will take your jobs, because greedy businesses will take them on and pay them paltry wages and get rid of you. I live in the north-east of England and when I go to town, I can see the difference in people here. I feel a stranger in my own town. I would say to all Scottish people to think really hard before making that big decision. Your, lives, your freedom depends on it.

Hi Musicalbox
Well put I think. I pretty much agree with all you've said here.
The EU is one of the worst things ever happened to us, at least in it's present form in my opinion.
But I know all this is very complex too, nothing is that simple any more, sadly.
Oh but that we could return back to basics in so many ways . Those in charge and holding the purse strings have just gotten too big, greedy and powerful now. and unaccountable too much of the time..

[squern]

Another English view:

If the Scots want to be independant, then I think they should be.
Not being in the EU would be a big plus point for me, and if they truly want to be independant, they shouldn't join. Then, they can have their own courts, decide their own economic policy, collect and pay their own taxes - all without having to ask permission from some nameless bureaucrat who bribed his way into office, somewhere in Brussels.

Maybe we should go for English independance.

However, they will be worse off financially, and it will be sad to see them break away.
Despite the fact that the Scots hate us, we are rather fond of them. We tell ourselves that the Scots hate everybody, so we shouldn't take it personally.
However,

[MPS16]

Another English view:....Maybe we should go for English independance. ....

No maybe about it.

the Scottish question and UKIP have, and will contiue to change England for the better.

[DandC_Warehouse]

Another English view:

If the Scots want to be independant, then I think they should be.
Not being in the EU would be a big plus point for me, and if they truly want to be independant, they shouldn't join. Then, they can have their own courts, decide their own economic policy, collect and pay their own taxes - all without having to ask permission from some nameless bureaucrat who bribed his way into office, somewhere in Brussels.

Maybe we should go for English independance.

However, they will be worse off financially, and it will be sad to see them break away.
Despite the fact that the Scots hate us, we are rather fond of them. We tell ourselves that the Scots hate everybody, so we shouldn't take it personally.
However,

I dont hate the english, I have many english friends, its not about that. Its about the right of self determination, the right to choose our own policies that benifit scotland.

Also we wont be worse off, currently Scotland pays far more in than they get out. even the unionists camps acknowledge that.