Scottish Independence... What are your thoughts?

[PetBazaar]

Some of us wanted Scotland to go. Sadly we had no say.

I did often wonder what the result might have been if it was a UK wide vote.

Some of the arguments used by non-Scots to justify their positions were even more amusing than our own homegrown arguments.

[astral276]

I did often wonder what the result might have been if it was a UK wide vote.

Some of the arguments used by non-Scots to justify their positions were even more amusing than our own homegrown arguments.

Well I knew that a No vote would resolve nothing and that the issue would simply drag on and on. Nothing but full independence would satisfy the Nationalists. No amount of devolved powers would be enough and they would carry on the campaign. So it might as well have been got over with sooner rather than later.

Sadly the latest move means Salmond's ugly mug is all over the media again.

[PetBazaar]

Well I knew that a No vote would resolve nothing and that the issue would simply drag on and on. Nothing but full independence would satisfy the Nationalists. No amount of devolved powers would be enough and they would carry on the campaign. So it might as well have been got over with sooner rather than later.

Sadly the latest move means Salmond's ugly mug is all over the media again.

Yeah, you're absolutely right on that one. A "No" vote was never going to be a "once in a generation result". Home rule is something that started being taken seriously in about 1950. I doubt it's going to stop now.

Even if the Smith Commission had actually come up with something like the "federal UK" that Gordie Broon was promising. Or the Devo Max that everyone was promising, it's unlikely that even that settlement would have lasted much beyond maybe 20 years. Given the laughable outcome of the Smith Commission, I reckon it'll certainly be back again a lot sooner than that.

In saying that, I think Alex Salmond has got it wrong by suggesting that another referendum should be a condition of supporting the Labour party after GE15. Far too soon to my mind.

Got to admit, I like your argument: "Vote Yes now, so you don't have to do it later". It might catch on.

[suesjools]

Yeah, you're absolutely right on that one. A "No" vote was never going to be a "once in a generation result". Home rule is something that started being taken seriously in about 1950. I doubt it's going to stop now.

Even if the Smith Commission had actually come up with something like the "federal UK" that Gordie Broon was promising. Or the Devo Max that everyone was promising, it's unlikely that even that settlement would have lasted much beyond maybe 20 years. Given the laughable outcome of the Smith Commission, I reckon it'll certainly be back again a lot sooner than that.

In saying that, I think Alex Salmond has got it wrong by suggesting that another referendum should be a condition of supporting the Labour party after GE15. Far too soon to my mind.

Got to admit, I like your argument: "Vote Yes now, so you don't have to do it later". It might catch on.

I was thinking of you yesterday while doing some shopping; I bought several boxes of Walker's shortbread cookies at the local Christmas Shop, they've got to be the best shortbreads I've ever tasted.

OK, back to politics.

Best wishes for many sales to all,

[squern]

What's been happening north of the Border?

It's all gone quiet, apart from Ms Sturgeon commenting on the bin lorry accident.

When I was selling on TOS, I sold a lot of sickles and axes to Scottish buyers. I worry about that now.

[MPS16]

The next big independance movement may well be a "Grexit".

And No they cant have the marbles back.

[astral276]

When I was selling on TOS, I sold a lot of sickles and axes to Scottish buyers. I worry about that now.

They probably wanted them for haggis hunting.

As for everything else... they are still moaning about everything and see themselves as victims.

[PetBazaar]

What's been happening north of the Border?

What’s going on North of the Border?

Well, since someone else has resurrected the thread... It’s certainly interesting.

Scotland now seems firmly split into 4 groups. Those who supported Independence and will do so again. Those who rejected it and regret it. Those who rejected it and would do so again. And a slightly worrying group who seem to be spending an unhealthy amount of time throwing nazi salutes and shouting rule Britannia at anyone who gets too close. There doesn’t appear to be a “Yes, but regretting it group”.

The press are in overdrive trying to portray Jim Murphy as some sort of saint and the single handed saviour of Scottish Labour (which incidentally doesn’t actually exist as an organisation). Scottish Labour (which doesn’t exist) now appears too embarrassed to reveal how many members it actually has and the press are curiously reluctant to even ask the question – an educated guess seems to have it at around 7000 members.

The Smith commission was a total waste of time and produced the absolute minimum that they could get away with. A recent ICM poll had 26% saying that the commission did a good job (38% of those voting No agreed). This was roundly reported as a resounding endorsement of “The Vow” despite the fact that it all still has to make it through parliament.

We are now in a position where it's theoretically possible to have English Votes for English Laws implemented but no new powers devolved to Scotland, and that would be interesting

Labour are now in full on General election mode, telling anyone who’ll listen that the NHS is doomed which appears to be the exact opposite of what they were saying before the referendum. The gist of their argument is now that only a vote for Labour will keep out the Conservatives. We all voted Labour and got the Conservatives in 2010, so that plan is bound to work well. In fact, almost as well as it did in 1979, 1983, 1987 and 1992.

You know it’s getting desperate when they keep trying to tell people that the SNP brought down a Labour government in 1979. They keep strangely quiet about that fact that a) Labour were useless at the time, and b) that the SNP brought forward the initial Motion of No Confidence because of Labour’s refusal to implement the Scotland Act after the 1979 referendum.

The SNP are… well, it’s kind of hard to say what’s going on with them, suffice to say that you would never believe that they lost the referendum. Various polls have them winning anything up to 53 seats at the next General Election. Even the most pessimistic figures say 20+ (up from 6 currently).

The results, as ever, may bear little resemblance to the polls, particularly as there now appears to be some sort of “Anyone but the SNP” alliance starting to form. How successful it will be is anyone’s guess. Interestingly it has actually resulted in some Scottish Labour grandees actively encouraging their (possibly ex) voters to vote Conservative or LibDem instead. When you're telling that to your supporters in order to keep out a party that currently has 6 seats, you know something is changing.

And it will be interesting to see how it pans out. In the (recent) past Scotland voted Labour at Westminster and Holyrood. But then we realised that at Holyrood Labour was a bit rubbish and so there started a shift to the SNP at Holyrood. A sort of realisation dawned that the SNP actually seemed to be doing a good job, so we voted for them again at Holyrood, safe in the knowledge that we could vote for or against in any independence referendum. We still hated the Tories so kept voting Labour at Westminster. Now we’ve realised that Labour and the Tories are one and the same but where it get’s interesting is that we’ve had our referendum. We can vote SNP for Westminster without being told that it's an automatic vote for independence. Even if just an anti-Labour protest, I can see that appealing to an awful lot of people this year.

[westlondoncarparts]

And what’s going on south of the border?

Well, most English people do not understand the sea change that is currently taking place in Scottish politics.

Scottish people have woken up and want to have a political system that looks after their needs.

The Westminster Parliament will realise that after the May election.

Regarding Scottish Labour, the SNP moved to become a left of centre party and effectively is the replacement Labour party in Scotland. For the Labour party to gain any meaningful traction amongst the Scottish electorate, they need to reverse the move to the right to become a Tory party that Tony Blair initiated.

A lot of English people think that the Referendum was started by a small band of Scottish malcontents with chips on their shoulders who think that they have been hard done by and are victims. Quite strange that those same English people then go around saying similar things about the European Union and how we have no say in Europe and how we get dominated by Brussels. Or maybe not quite so strange – their criticisms of the Scots are merely a projection of their own inner subjectivities and completely miss the point about what is going on in Scotland.

Regarding an earlier post I made in this thread that I made about Glasgow as the second city of the British Empire, a more succinct overview would have been to say that in the post World War 2 era successive British Governments of all colours have failed to address the key trends of increasing globalisation with manufacturing production being shifted to low wage economies and of the loss of protected international markets as the British Empire disappeared. The consequence of this has been decades of high levels of unemployment and welfare support in Glasgow with no prospect of an end in sight. No small wonder that Glasgow voted for independence – an independent Scotland could hardly do worse for Glasgow than decades of failure by Westminster Parliaments.

[squern]

So, how does a scheme to soak the rich (who live mostly in London), to pay for the Scottish NHS fit with a country which says it wants to be independent of England/Westminster?

Anybody whose home has become worth more than 1million (or two million, depending on which Labour spokesman you believe) will be charged around £3000 per year as a wealth tax, regardless of whether they have any income to pay it or not.

What became of "from each according to his means, to each according to his needs" ?

Either the Scottish Labour Party is incredibly cynical, and utterly contemptuous of the Scots because they think they will fall for this, and vote Labour. Or the Scots are politicaly naive, avaricious and so resentful of Westminster that they will indeed vote for Labour.

Or the Scots will see this for what it is, and show Mr Murphy what they think of cheap electoral tricks in May.