The EU Referendum.

[astral276]

As for calling IndyRef2, we can do it if we want, it just won't be legally binding unless Westminster agrees.

That's what I meant. You could obviously do what you like, but unless the UK government were willing to accept any result you would simply be wasting your time and money.

What is odd about this referendum up here, given our own recent vote, is the fact that there seems to be practically no interest in it whatsoever. It's almost like the politicians are going through the motions, and the population just isn't that bothered one way or the other.

Really, given the importance, there doesn't seem to have been much to get your teeth into. Just two camps arguing the toss and each claiming their scare story is scarier than the other's scare story. I am perhaps fortunate as I knew which way I would vote in any referendum before it was even on the table. I do pity those looking for factual information to guide them though, as they are simply not getting it from either side.

The Leave camps are busy bickering amongst themselves again. Good Grief!!!! Don't they know how important this is??? They are really not helping their cause.

Cameron has spent weeks lecturing us that leaving would be a leap into the unknown - and then goes on to issue dire predictions of what will happen if we leave. How can the unknown be predicted?

[PATRIOT73]

Patriot, I'm surprised at you for believing that, it's all part of 'Project Fear'...prices go up all the time, it's part of life. It would be so easy for any companies to increase their prices and their profit if we leave the EU and blame the price rises on exit of EU.

Easy way to tell when David Cameron is lying, his lips are moving...

i dont complete just utter tosh atuver scaremongeriin tactic by dodgy dave
n if was true most wud welcome afew £s on shoppin bill rather than as i say 12m turks etc

[sidthelamp]

britain in the present ? britain in the future ?

this rather long teaser may not be fortuitous in the present climate


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJcxtKpqthE

[westlondoncarparts]

Dear Sid,

Post #241

What you have written about the role of the President of the EU Council is incorrect. Although the President of the Council might undertake work on developing strategy and policy or might represent the Council at times, this is under the direction of the members of the Council and all final political decisions including the passing of legislation rest with the members of the Council and not with the Council President. As I wrote previously, the role of the Council President is primarily that of an administrative and management functionary and is not a role of executive political decision making or direction.

The role of the Council President is given by the EU as follows:

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/european-council/president/role/

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-european-union-and-comments/title-3-provisions-on-the-institutions/88-article-15.html

You can see that this role, which is determined within the Treaty of Lisbon, is very different to that of a political President with executive political powers such as President Putin whose role is prescribed in the Constitution of the Russian Federation.

http://www.constitution.ru/en/10003000-05.htm

You can see also from the descriptions of the roles of EU Parliament President and EU Commission President as given by the EU that these are also primarily administrative and management functionary roles and are not roles of executive political decision making or direction.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/the-president/en/president/functions.html

http://ec.europa.eu/commission/2014-2019/president

A number of people have misrepresented these posts of President as being more than they are. There are no unelected bureaucrats in Brussels or Strasbourg passing laws in an undemocratic way – either now or in the past. All the people passing new EU laws have either been elected democratically direct to the EU Parliament or democratically direct to national Governments before they come to represent their nations at the Council.

For years UKIP and Nigel Farage have put a spin on how the EU works that is substantially incorrect and misleading.

[sidthelamp]

The eu council is the main body that passes 80% o the laws in the eu,the president not only decides policy his job also means he brings together all of the legislative reasoning through out the eu machine to be voted on in the council he presides over, he also determines when a vote can happen, unless hes not available when a majority of the council can call a vote, id say hes the main man or woman with the most power in the eu , he or she is elected in house not by the people,that is not democratic,

the council is made up of national ministers who meet about 4 times a year,

these ministers are not elected to the council they are appointed by national leaders in are case the prime minister , ministers in the uk are appointed in the uk government they are not elected , they maybe elected MPs , but they are not elected but appointed as ministers , the british people have no say who becomes a minister in the uk parliament, nor do they elect eu council members, thats twice removed from the control of british people , so what exactly and who do they represent , there not allowed to represent uk policies only vote on eu policies, we do not vote as a people on eu policies nor do we elect the people who vote on eu policies,yet what is voted on directly effects us the people and overrides national laws, im really struggling to find anything democratic and accountable about how the eu council works,

so what we have is a uncountable, self serving totalitarian oligarchy regime masquerading as a democratic institution ,whos roots go back to a nation who lost a war , and even before the loss but the end was in sight they masterminded what we now call the eu, the stripping of national representation of people by there own governments ,enforcing its own laws europe wide hiding behind smoke and mirrors crying democracy ,

[westlondoncarparts]

The President of the Council works for the Council at the direction of the Prime Ministers and other Ministers (as appropriate) of the member states and does not decide policy and does not pass laws. As I said before, the role is largely an administrative and managerial role.

It is completely incorrect to refer to the Council as totalitarian.

If there is any democratic deficit, it is with the Prime Ministers and Ministers of the various member nations not engaging with their electorates over what they are doing in Brussels and not carrying out the wishes of their electorate in Brussels. The British representatives at Brussels are accountable to the British public for what they do. It is incorrect to say that they are not accountable.

If the British people think there there is a problem with who the British Prime Minister sends to the Council to represent the UK, then they need to exercise their democratic rights in the UK and tell the Prime Minister what they want in Brussels. I doubt that many British people would have a problem with a British Minister being sent to the Council as representative for the same portfolio area that the Minister covers in the UK - like George Osborne, Chancellor of the Exchequer, works with other European Finance Ministers in the Council; like Philip Hammond, Foreign Secretary, works with other European Foreign Affairs Ministers in the Council.

The problem with this Referendum debate is that there are serious matters that we should be discussing about Europe and the UK but are not. The way that UKIP have got the EU into the mainstream debate on a very narrow range of issues and the fact that the referendum was David Cameron's way of reacting to UKIP and his own Eurosceptics is denying the British electorate the proper debate over a number of issues that is needed. Politicians in both camps are really letting the country down and whatever the result, this Referendum is not going to be accepted by a large chuck of the electorate as having much real meaning at all.

[sidthelamp]

The President of the Council works for the Council at the direction of the Prime Ministers and other Ministers (as appropriate) of the member states and does not decide policy and does not pass laws. As I said before, the role is largely an administrative and managerial role.

It is completely incorrect to refer to the Council as totalitarian.

If there is any democratic deficit, it is with the Prime Ministers and Ministers of the various member nations not engaging with their electorates over what they are doing in Brussels and not carrying out the wishes of their electorate in Brussels. The British representatives at Brussels are accountable to the British public for what they do. It is incorrect to say that they are not accountable.

If the British people think there there is a problem with who the British Prime Minister sends to the Council to represent the UK, then they need to exercise their democratic rights in the UK and tell the Prime Minister what they want in Brussels. I doubt that many British people would have a problem with a British Minister being sent to the Council as representative for the same portfolio area that the Minister covers in the UK - like George Osborne, Chancellor of the Exchequer, works with other European Finance Ministers in the Council; like Philip Hammond, Foreign Secretary, works with other European Foreign Affairs Ministers in the Council.

The problem with this Referendum debate is that there are serious matters that we should be discussing about Europe and the UK but are not. The way that UKIP have got the EU into the mainstream debate on a very narrow range of issues and the fact that the referendum was David Cameron's way of reacting to UKIP and his own Eurosceptics is denying the British electorate the proper debate over a number of issues that is needed. Politicians in both camps are really letting the country down and whatever the result, this Referendum is not going to be accepted by a large chuck of the electorate as having much real meaning at all.

look man this is what the eu says about its own representative


The work of the European Council is coordinated by its President,who prepares, chairs and leads the meetings, building consensusamong its members. Together with the President of the EuropeanCommission, he represents the EU at its top level. The High Representativefor Foreign Affairs and Security Policy represents Unioninterests in foreign affairs and security matters.

hes the top man

he does not work for the council the council work for him, of course he manages the council, if he dont like some thing it does not happen

there is no democratic deficit how can there be when the eu does not report to national governments , the uk ministers dont vote in the council on uk affairs they vote on eu affairs how can the uk people hold to account ministers who are not voting on uk affairs its set up so there is no accountability, you cant hold to account a minister from this country by the uk people , when hes not elected by the uk people nor is he acting on uk business ,the prime minister sends ministers to the council but there not acting in a ministerial role are they they dont represent the government on uk policy,eu rules dont allow them too, there more representing party politics at a international level with like minded other nationals you really need to understand this ,

just what do you mean by proper debate exposing how the eu is undemocratic surely qualifies the very hart of the matter ,

the president is elected by the council the council as i have demonstrated is not representative of any nations people but appointed by prime ministers in any particular country the appointees do not report to any national parliament that represents the people of that country, the whole thing stinks man and you know it,

[astral276]

The government's response to the petition that David Cameron take no part in any post Brexit UK/EU negotiations was to not address the issue raised but to use it to mailshot all signatories with Remain camp propaganda.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/121579

[PATRIOT73]

if we do infact do the rite thing
Attachment 53052

wonder wat the time scale wud be if we voted OUT

i read somewhere around 2years

"Grandma, What’s a Eeeeyou?
"Once upon a time there was a beautiful kingdom with the prettiest flag you ever did see. The people of the kingdom were proud to have a queen and a government that ruled wisely and the laws were the same for everyone. From the sky the kingdom was a multi coloured patchwork quilt with fields of crops and orchards of fruit. Everywhere you travelled there were fields of animals. Sheep pigs cows and chickens that all lived on the land and grazed on the lush green grass. In the water around the land the fish were plentiful and every day the fishermen would bring them fresh fish to eat. The people had more than enough food. And every single thing that was made was of such high quality that it received a certificate of high standard. And some even had the seal of approval from the Queen. Lots of other lands wanted the fine goods that were made in the kingdom. It had the best scientists and inventors. The best schools and universities, The best music and ...Well ,The best everything in the world. They had buildings called public houses where the people had fun. And children played happily on the parks as no poisons were allowed to be sprayed .The people were busy and happy. But if anyone became ill the Kingdom had lots of nurses and doctors to make them well again. And do you know they didn't have to pay a single penny. The land was full of industry the ground was full of coal and the people full of pride. But something bad happened and the people lost their pride and courage. The patchwork quilt faded and lost all it colour and the Beautiful Kingdom began to die. And all because of the Eeeeyou.

[astral276]

wonder wat the time scale wud be if we voted OUT

i read somewhere around 2years

The government state that withdrawal will be by invoking Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty which allows up to 2 years - but which can be extended by agreement. However, the EU has a track record of changing things (regardless of any existing treaty) when it suits their ends.

If the terrible twins, Cameron and Osborne, remain in power post leave then they will sell us down the river in any negotiations.